Hi Betterway. . .

Was visiting family again this weekend and went to see a movie. While there the phone rang (this was yesterday, Easter). It was P#2. . .left me a message and wished me Happy Easter. When I heard the phone ring, out of curiousity I looked at the caller ID (I was in the theatre). I was SHOCKED to see his number appear. My heart started beating like a drum. I couldn't believe he called me. And . . .I could hardly sleep last night thinking about it.

>>But after talking to him I get tempted to call him up to believe that I have something else I need to say to him or make him understand. Maybe just maybe it was all me and there was no reason for me to experience the excrutiating pain of the last year.<<

Girl. . .I so relate.

Now here is something I'm learning as I have accepted my role as the coaddict. I definitely play a role in all this. It's like insecurity playing to insecurity but each of us acting it out in a different way. I am actually beginning to see the part I have played but I never knew what I was dealing with until now. From what I've been reading and coming to an understanding of is this. P is also a sex addict. Of everything I've read now, I'm almost certain of it (P#1 too). It also explains some of the unusual sexual behavior (of both). . .not a pretty picture for me to see Betterway.

I did have enough awareness when my heart started racing at seeing his number to ask myself what exactly was it that I was feeling. I got to tell you at first it felt like fear. Then I realized. . .it was like an adrenaline rush. . .almost like a high. . .then I knew. . .that's what I get when I hear from him. It is like a medication, a soothing feeling. . .reassuring,like maybe he really does care.

Yes. . .I am working on an addiction that is a strong as crack cocaine. I can only quit one day at a time.

Today I made it.
finished

Hi Finished, I have started posting again over at the forum, since our site here has been down.

http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATHLEARN/home.msnw forum.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I have thought of you often too. Hope all the members are hanging in there. It does get better.

>>Then I realized. . .it was like an adrenaline rush. . .almost like a high. . .then I knew. . .that's what I get when I hear from him. It is like a medication, a soothing feeling. . .reassuring,like maybe he really does care.<<

I want to believe so much that he cares. I know with absolutely no doubt that he is an N and a P, after rereading alot of the posts but sometimes it escapes my counciouness and I forget. It makes me sad to know that the p. can't change. I don't like hurting people. I want to take his calls, I want to call him just to talk. I want it all to be okay. But I know it can't be. I tried, oh God did I try to make it okay. I didn't want to give up my friend. I was figuring up today that I have known him for 5 years now and for 2 of those years I "was" his secondary supplier. How degrading. I think I miss the friendship I thought we had - not him. I have never had a friend that knew me so well, that I felt so close to, that I shared so much with. It is hard to accept that it was all a game. I have a couple girlfriends but I'm not close to them like I was with the P. I don't want to be used, exploited or abused ever again. I made a list today of all the reasons why I should not call the P.

I have been rereading Stalking the Soul. It tells my story. I was a little depressed today, but I know that is part of the process. The book is really hitting home even more this time around. As I get further away from the P. emotionally I see things even more clearer. I get angry at myself for letting this happen. But I also know that I didn't feel like I had a choice. I was definetly targeted and taken for a ride. There were so many signs but none of them added up.

I am starting not to hurt as much over the fact that he has new targets and they act as if everything is wonderful. They are being so bamboozeled and one of them I hope the best for. She is truly unaware of what kind of dangerous friendship she is entering into. I know being involved with the P can lead a person down a very scary lonely road. May they find there way to a forum like this one someday so they can finally know what hit them.

Any association with the P. sets me back. Just a simple little phone call this weekend. Yes, finished, I know the feeling, the addiction, the high. I think they are addicted to us as much as we are to them. I made it today, too, finished. We made it together. We ought to pat ourselves on the back.

betterway

Hi again Betterway!

I think I shared a few months ago that I was reading a book called "The Betrayal Bond" by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. (subtitle: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships). It was reading that book that put me in touch with what had happened and what made it possible to happen.

I (like you) had developed a deep friendship with N/P. All my past relationships had been abusive and exploitive. This one seemed sooooooo different. He was polite, courteous, respectful and always a gentleman. He never once made a pass at me. Because of his attention, which was given in a way I had never received it, I found myself really falling in love with him. I had those feelings for well over two years before I revealed that to him. (He asked).

I can see now how my own preception played a huge part in my own victimization. Because I thought it WAS the WAY I was perceiving it. We had never really discussed it so it was very speculative. All the feeling expressed were strictly on my part. Of course, he never said or acted anyway that would have caused me to think otherwise.

In the book it talks about this. It says "the promise is so appealing that intuitions are set aside. The promise and the desire to believe the promise are so great that the obvious is ignored and the improbable accepted. Again, we are sucked back into the inevitable result".

The book also discusses that there are five main ways promises are used to betray. They are betrayal by seduction, betrayal by terror, betray by exploitation of power, betrayal by intimacy and betrayal by spirit.

One of the betrayals I found interesting was the betrayal by seduction. I quoting from the book here:

>>Seduction is high warmth with low intention. For example, if a person touches your arm during a conversation, it my simply be a gesture of human kindness. It also could be considered warm and connecting. However, the same touch could also be a sexual overture. If the intention is not clear, you may not know what the touch means. Lack of intention can cover risk. if the person who touched you was indeed testing for sexual interest, when challenged as to what he wanted, the person could say. "Oh, I was just being friendly." so communicaticating and understanding personal intent ane incredibly important SKILLS (caps mine)that MUST BE LEARNED.

The book gives further examples but I'll just share what the book gives as the high warmth/low intention that is often found in betrayal by seduction senarios. The emotional content of the relationship obscures what the partner's true intent is. Warmth can be expressed in many ways:

expression of admiration and liking
expression of caring and concern
indication of long-term relationship
affectionate gestures and touching
positive, upbeat conversation about the relationship,
project or challenge at hand
excitment, and desire to get to know you better
complimenting and fawning behavior
excessive familiarity
personal revelations and disclosures that may feel
inappropriate to content

If the real agends is not expressed, it may be seduction. When the warmth is part of and effort to get you to do something and it is obvious, you distrust it. When the politician seeking your vote or the car salesman pushing a car uses too much warmth, we use words like sleaze or smooth because we do not like being finessed or manipulated.

People who come from dysfunctional families in which there was trauma or abuse are particularly vulnerable to seduction. First because of the intrusion that is part of living in exploitive systems the boundaries that prevent most people from being deceived are not there. These people have not been taken care of or protected, so they may not know how to protect or care for themselves. Most of us learn not to be easily conned into things that might hurt us. Trauma survivors can be extremely naive even while being vigilant. Their descernment and common sense have been impaired by living with secrets, denial, deception and exploitation.<<

I of course can't share it all but I have found this book to be a valuable source of information to me. I've been back to Borders and have scanned through some of his other books. "Don't Call it Love", "Contray to Love" and "Out of the Shawdows". I have taken a particularly hard look at the profile of the coaddict. I found myself there.

I've shared before, I come from a long line of abusers. So much so, I didn't even KNOW it was abuse. But I am determined to learn all I can so I can keep working on my own issues. For me. . .I know I will be "Twelve Stepping" the rest of my life. I'll never make it out without a program.

Oh it is good to be here! It helps me so much to share. . .

>> think they are addicted to us as much as we are to them. I made it today, too, finished. We made it together. We ought to pat ourselves on the back.<<

Yes. . .from what I'm learning, that is true. In my case I see where our lives (me and N/P) paralle (spelling?). Both of us. . .victims of abuse. Each of us acting out our part. Each of us, loney, insecure, low self esteem. Both looking for "love" in the wrong place. I find myself more compassionate these days. I can even see where I myself was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I was SOOOOO scared that I immediately disengaged. Because there is no open and honest communication. . .neither of us knows how the other feels. All based on dishonesty and speculation. Trying to live in someones elses head. This has been my thought as I've begun to look at my part in this. . .

>>I don't like hurting people. I want to take his calls, I want to call him just to talk. I want it all to be okay. But I know it can't be. I tried, oh God did I try to make it okay. I didn't want to give up my friend. <<

You know Betterway, I feel that way too. Maybe when I get healthier I can be honest someday. I'm only just beginning to learn.

>>I made it today, too, finished. We made it together. We ought to pat ourselves on the back.<<

Yes!!!!! (pat. . .pat. . .pat)!!!!!

:-)
finished

Hi finished,

Some days I feel like giving up. I'm just exhausted. Reading "Stalking the Soul" again, kinda messed me up. I want to let go of this CRAP NOW and never think about it again.

very simply - I broke no contact. Now I can't quit crying.
At this time I can't share about what was said. I went to my counselor today, he says that my past has alot to do with whats going on with me. I just think that after everything I went through as a child that it is a pretty cruel joke played on me to have met such an evil person and to be deceived and bullied by someone I thought was my best friend. I've lost my faith in good people. I have such a big heart and it has been stomped all over.

I'm having PTSD again, which hasn't happened for quiet awhile.

I hesitate to post, as I don't want anybody to think I'm just hopeless and can't get better. Because sometimes I wonder myself. I worry my counselor will give up on me. It gets so exhausting trying to "fake it until I make it".
I'm going to go try to clear up my face and go to my new boring office and try to fake it some more. At least for awhile there I was doing real good with No Contact and Faking it!!

I was flippin through TV channels awhile back and just happened to catch a joke on the Anna Nicole show. It was something like: "You know what the difference between a man and a woman is? A woman can fake and orgasm but while a man can fake a whole relationship". Sorry men here on this forum. But the joke means something to me, I have to just change a couple words in it to "P".

Where is everybody??? I need people to share while I just sit back and read/listen.

betterway

Betterway!!!

I'm so glad you are here!

>>I hesitate to post, as I don't want anybody to think I'm just hopeless and can't get better. Because sometimes I wonder myself<<

No hopeless cases. . .we don't give up! Yes, it does seem sometime to me too, that after all I've been through that I would be betrayed so cruely at the hands of a "friend".

I've gotten a little caught up in the craziness myself. As I was out visiting family, I realized how abuse has touched so many members of my family. I can only keep working on myself. The more we learn, the more we are aware. At least we KNOW no contact helps us heal and can see the turmoil it puts us through when we connect with them in any way. I see it as a "slip". Don't beat yourself up, be gentle with yourself.

Hang in there Betterway...there really is better days ahead. I think it's just life in general to have to take the good with the bad. I'm having more good days here lately and from the sound of your posts your'e having some "better days" yourself! . . .(one day at a time).

Take good care of yourself today.
Finished

Hi Betterway and Finished,

I have been so busy. I am doing good but of course the stories are still haunting me. I was talking with a friend and she was reading me a book on addiction, and they had a nutrional recipe: it says it cures co-dependency mostly with Amino Acids, and a thousand more stuffs. When I ll put a hand on it, i will pass around the references. Once I was something similar and I was in the best " mind shape" ever. It may help us all.

To both I have too been reading the book, and it is hard. Patience Betterway, you will feel better. I think I have been very lucky that I haven't ran into the P. I have seen the "crime scene" last week, and I think it was necessery, but I am convinced that if I would have seen or talk to the P i would be exactly in the same situatio you are in. I am happy to see that you are still posting. You have been part of my recovery.

Hi Finished. I'm so glad you reading those Carnes books.

I think you might be taking on a little too much responsibility for you falling in love with the P. I think you were set up big time just as I was. You know others know when someone falls in love with them. I have had the experience, and AS SOON as I noticed it happening, I talked about it with the person, and told them it was not reciprical. Gently of course. And that was only ones where it was not reciprocal. LOL. Your P deliberately set out for you to fall in love with him, thats what P's do. Every target that has been in a "non- relationship" with one, has experienced the same thing. Ones that dated them, lived with them and/or married them. ALL those people could not possibly all have their perceptions off. I don't think your perception was off at all. You wrote:

>>>I can see now how my own preception played a huge part in my own victimization. Because I thought it WAS the WAY I was perceiving it.>>>>

He played you like a puppet, Finished. That's what these guys do.

Oh Betrayed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is SOOOOOOOOOOOO good to hear from you! I was so excited to see your name on the post list!

>>I think you might be taking on a little too much responsibility for you falling in love with the P. I think you were set up big time just as I was.<<

Thank you for that. I went to a meeting at noon and shared I was suffering from the codependant crazies. Taking responsibilty for ALL the addict, abusers, alcholics etc in my life. You know I was actually thinking "if I would have done it ALL different" THEY would be okay. Now how crazy is that!

>>Your P deliberately set out for you to fall in love with him, thats what P's do. Every target that has been in a "non- relationship" with one, has experienced the same thing. Ones that dated them, lived with them and/or married them. ALL those people could not possibly all have their perceptions off. I don't think your perception was off at all.<<

>>He played you like a puppet, Finished. That's what these guys do.<<

THANK YOU Betrayed for bringing me back to reality. . .I was missing that part BIG TIME!

So good to hear from you! How are you and your grandaughter doing? Hope to hear more from you. You have been a huge blessing and support for me Betrayed. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciated your response. Just what I needed to hear today!

:-)
finished

Those books are great! Hard stuff to digest but necessary to understand so we can untangle.

Hopeful!

I've been gone for awhile and it is so good to be back and see that we are "reconnecting" again! I sure did miss you all when I was gone and then when the site was down. I need you all. I have that sense that "together we can make it".

>>I was talking with a friend and she was reading me a book on addiction, and they had a nutrional recipe: it says it cures co-dependency mostly with Amino Acids, and a thousand more stuffs. When I ll put a hand on it, i will pass around the references. Once I was something similar and I was in the best " mind shape" ever. It may help us all.<<

If there is a nutritional recipe out there that can help, I want to hear about it!

>>To both I have too been reading the book, and it is hard.<<

Which book are you reading right now Hopeful. I'm reading "Betrayal Bonds" by Patrick Carnes PhD.

You have been busy. . .are you working or just with "stuff"?

It was good to see you here again Hopeful. I've missed you.

Finished