Hi Ace,
There is a lot to say about this....But I am very tired now and have to get some sleep. I come back to you tonight...( night is..here night,in my country!!! whhawhahw)
So see you soon oke.
Segaya

Hi Ace,

I was thinking a lot about that idea for a detective, and the more I think about it, the more I understand were you are coming from , but also the more I see the cons of that idea. What is the goal you are after, what is the purpose of all of this?

I think that what you want is enough knowledge so this man can't surprise you in a negative way anymore....and that you expect to get some proof to convince your daughter... and that you will know what you are up against?..This pretty much will som it up I think?
Jan pointed out some of the things already, so I will concentrate on other things oke...
How big a change do you think you have in succeeding in any of those goals?

The first one;
What is there to know more than you already do? You know this man is bad news, that he is a psychopath..this people are the worst kind there is...Trust me.... You will not be able to predict whatever his next step is what so ever...therefore you have to become a psychopath yourself and believe me again..you can't!!!
This people don't think the way we do....
I raised a psychopath son... no not true, I tried to rais him....He grew bigger, stronger, smarter, but ot more decent. And I learned one think through and through...... I will never be able to keep a step in front of him...The only thing I can do.. is to stay very close to who I am and listen to my intuition. My intuition will tell me clearout what is true and not..

A suggestion; Print the checklist of Dr.Hare... keep it with you for 1 day..only one day... And with everything you do, try to think as a psychopath.....
So in the morning you open the fridge door and you see there is only milk left for 1 person of your family..I bet you leaf it for the person who likes it the most? Wrong!!..Take it for you got nothing to do with being concerned for the others.

If you are in a shop and you are hungry then just take something without paying...You are today the psychopath aren't you and they don't care to pay..They are hungry so intitled to eat..... payed or not is not importend and not of any relevance...
When coming home you brag about something you make up at that point and if someone of your family talks back or even is brave enough to refutes the story you so 'cleverly' made up, you just become angry get a fit and threaten them..just like that...easy to do isnt it???
If you need or want something from them, you go charm them...keep in mind NOT because you are charming, you have a hidden agenda...this is the manipulation part.....
You have a bad day so you feel like breaking something. Your wife keeps this bijou on a sidetable in the livingroom. She is fond of it, for her mother who just past away, gave it to her on her last birthday... No matter, You feel like smashing it, so you do...
I think you get the picture? These are only small, small examples of what a psychopath can do on just an average day....Nothing big, nothing to shake about..just average...
How is it to keep on doing so for a day?
Can you keep up with it, or do you forget that you are the psychopath for that day?
That is what I mean...you will never be able to step in there footsteps...You don't think like they do, don't 'feel' like they do, dont't function like they do, you have a different mentallity and a different way of existing
I learned a little bit to think the way my son does...I did the same thing with my parents..I can..you wil be able also for a while...but at that border we allpsychopahty we will loose it/them..So, we can for a short while and keep ahead of them for a while even, but then I get lost..I completely forget to think like them and bammm there they have a grip on me before I know it....The thing is..they know your weak spots even before you know them. it doen't take time for them to get to know that much..somehow they are master psychologists.... And they will squees you if you are not carefull.....
So isn't it just enough to know he is bad, bad news????

Secondly you maybe willing to do all these things to warn you daughter and proof it on top of that so you can convince her;....
if you keep in mind how she usually behaved.... and you compare it with her current behavior and with the other signs she gives away... ( a psychopath will never do that this easy...)The fact that she is anorexic and the fights she made with her sister..the way she acted with the money..... it is clear isn't it..she knows!
But like we pointed out before, she doesn't want to know..She is in love and remember??? When people are in love they are blind.... They just don't see clear and they will make up all these excuses for the person they are in love with..
She is having a relation with a psycopath.....
Oke.. lets see what can happen;
You get prove that he is a thief and spend time in prison.. You tell her.....? what will her reaction be....??
Let's go for the nicest option.. She is in shock and gets angry with him..goes to him and demands an explenation....
Read the checklist now..... He will convince her of his thruthfullness and before you know it she is in your house shouting again for he told her that he is a changed man, he is in love with her now, and that made him realize that he doesn't want to live like that, that it were the circumstances who made him do this.. He was in a difficult place in time back then and other, bad people convinced him that this was the way out........bla blabla bla bla...... Guess who she is going to believe....
What wil this do for the relationship you have with her as parents...What harm do you cause....
On the other hand..afterwards she will know but isn't the demage done then already????
As it shown already...he is convincing her that you are the bad people and are treating her bad... Not enough money, mentally no support and so on.... he is charming and manipulative... who will win that fight???

And third; You want to know what you are up agianst....?

No one can predict the behavior of a psychopath.
If you think you know your lives partner very well, then you will be surprised that in a certain situation she/he will do exactly the opposite of what you thought he/she would do!!
Knowing all people are different and you will never be able to look inside somebody's head and heart you will never be surprised for you will know that..
SO, how do you want to predict the behavior of somebody who is not acting like a human at all?
I do think that is impossible....

On top of it all. A detective will cost you a lot of money. Most people cant just give that money away 'like that.Some even have to go in depts to do so.... is it worth that kind of costs??
It could take years to save that kind of money again. What do you really get back from all that effort and all that money.... Will your goals be met?
Really Ace..think of it again for I am very afraid you will be disappoited.

I hope to hear back from you soon.
keep up the good spirit and don't let this poison you own mind ad live.....
Love Segaya

Thanks Jan and Segaya for your very valuable inputs.
Jan, I've done most of what you suggested regarding trying to come up with info on the psychopath, but with no luck. We hired an investigator to do an initial quick check and he also couldnt come up with anything. The guy is a major league con artist which I guess is typical of many psychopaths. I showed Segaya's latest reply to my wife, and we are now convinced that Segaya's advice is the best way to go - her advice is not to proceed with further investigation. Thinking about it, in our case Segaya definitely is right. As an example, lets assume we find out where he lives, or at least sleeps, and we discover he cant hold a job and has been in trouble with the law over time. So what ? Presenting this info to our daughter would probably make her resent us even more for 'spying' on him and, as Segaya says, he will come up with alibis to explain it all away - and our daughter will accept whatever he has to say. As I may have mentioned earlier, our daughter is an intelligent person, and my wife believes that our daughter already knows much more about this pyschopath than we give credit. She accepts and loves him for whatever reasons may be. So our decision is to not go with an investigator. Segaya thank you so much for your excellent reasoning and you too Jan for your suggestions.

Unfortunately, our relationship with our daughter has over the last 2 weeks deteriorated. She hardly speaks to us and seems to be full of hate towards us, as much as we try to be nice and speak with her. She eats very little at home as well, with all her anorexic problems. Again, she was never like this in her life !! I spoke with the psychiatrist yesterday (he's the one who diagnosed the person she's involved with as a psychopath). He said our daughter is in a "perfect storm" - a combination of her anorexic / emotional state coupled with apparent incitement by the psychopath against us. He said deep down, she is still the good daughter she once was and will once again become. This statement encouraged me, but the situation is very hard on my wife. Its hard on me too, but at least I get up in the morning and go off to work - I have a successful high-tech career. My wife recently became unemployed, so she spends most of the day at home without enough diversions from our problems.

As I mentioned previously, as of a few weeks ago, the psychopath is not allowed around our house. We are a 2-car family. Our daughter does not have her own car, but we always were willing to let her use a car whenever she wanted. A couple of nights ago, around 10 PM, she asked for the car. We asked why - and she indicated she was going to see the psychopath. We simply said no, we will not allow you to use the car to go see him. She got upset, went in her room, and slammed the door. The next day, I spoke with my psychologist friend, and he says we should be more flexible on the car issue (he said shes not a teenager, shes an adult, and our position pushes her away from us and causes more antagonism). However, the psychiatrist told me yesterday, in a very direct and blunt way, that we did the right thing. He said setting very clear boundaries is something she desperately needs and in the future she will thank us for it, even if she is 22 years old and not a teenager. He reminded us that psychopaths are bad and dangerous people, and anything we do to make it more difficult for her logistically to see him is the correct thing to do. He said we have to be careful with psychologists on this issue. Jan, Segaya, others, what do you think ? I understand that we cannot interfere too much with our daughter's intent on being with the psychopath - she'll have to come to her own conclusions sooner or later. But it makes sense to me that if we make it more difficult for her logistically to see him its for her own good. We dont have to be partners in making it convenient for her to see him. Anyway, as far as I can tell, in the last few weeks, most of the effort in seeing him is coming from her - I dont believe he has made much effort in driving out to our area to pick her up / return her home.

Anyway, thanks once again for all your help. This forum is a great thing, and, you, Jan and Segaya, have already helped us very much in make correct decisions.

Regards to all,
Ace

Hello Ace,

I have been reading over your posts and am glad that you that have shared your situation. You already have a lot of wisdom from other members and I certainly agree with their comments. And I would like to offer some of the thoughts that I had as I read.

You have extended your unconditional hand to your daughter if this man is violent or otherwise hurts your daughter. But if this person is focused more on the financial benefits and demonstarting his grandiose notion of himself, then when he realisies his struting is ignored and he's not going to get the money he wants, he will soon move to more rewarding ground. I do hope this turns out to be the case.

I can understand your comment that this person is the greater threat to your daughter at this point, and as long as this man is around it will be difficult to focus on the underlying issues that may be present in the anorexia. Yet I also feel it is important not to lose sight of the underlying issues, of which the anorexia is a symptom, as these relate to your daughter directly and will still need to be dealt with when he's gone. The fact your daughter exhibited signs of anorexia so far prior to her recent meeting up with this person suggests to me "underlying issues" and that her relationship may be 'playing into' or 'playing out'. Given this man has only been around for a comparatively short while and her anorexia many months, it doesn't appear that this man removing himself is going to simply take the anorexia away with him. While I can understand your feeling that this situation obscures the anorexia perhaps there may be a way to hit two birds with one stone. At least to some degree. I'd just like to share these ideas with you and hope they offer something useful.

As Jan said, anorexia is essentially a control issue. Often very compliant and loving children become anorexic as a passive resistance/passive aggression turned against themselves. High achieving children also. It can also be about the fear of not being able to cope once separate from their parent/family. And hence can be seen at times as part of underlying family dynamics.

Sometimes in families that are very tight and where a child is usually complaint and respectful, they can sometimes separate a little later than do other children who separate earlier due to personality and family dynamics or who are pushed out by circumstances. Separation at a later age might involve an outside factor, a person who acts as a catalyst in the separation process, particularly in tight families, as it can mitigate any subconscious guilt.

On a level this catalyst figure can be seen as the reason for the separation. He's the reason she is standing up to you. It's not her rebellion against you - it's the boyfriend's influence. He's taking her away. And even in her mind it may be He's taking me away, not, im trying to leave.

Perhaps this man may be acting as the separation catalyst in this situation. I wonder if part of what may hold the attraction for her is that on some level he represents a move towards freedom, albeit at potentially great cost - depending on this man. And on a level she may equate taking away that separation catalyst - moving away from this man - as a return to a state she needs to grow beyond, but possibly doesn't feel able to take. If this is the case, she may feel, on an inner level, in a terrible bind. Physical adulthood doesn't automatically confer emotional maturity. Despite the achievements and her talents, she may actually have little confidence in herself. At least with this man she may believe she has someone apparently competent and successful to take her away without being totally alone. It's just unfortunate that the person she is involved with is so undesireable (although that may be part of the rebellion) and does not have her best interests at heart. But you have taken firm steps regarding this. The more you can side with you daughter, for what she may really be wanting, and not against him as such, then I believe the better for the situation.

I hope what I am trying to say makes some sense.

Also I just have a question. And my apologies if you have already answered this in your previous post. How old is this person? Is he much older?

One other thing I have been wondering - and I respect if you prefer not to answer - is what you hope to happen with your daughter once this person is gone? Perhaps you haven't had space to consider this yet, but I wonder. Do you hope that he will go away and that things will return to normal? Do you fear something may be irrevocably changed? I wonder just what scenario you might picture at that time.

Best wishes to you.

Sapphira

Hello Ace

I was going to ask the question of this man's age but Sapphira has already done so. I may be wrong but I presumed he was a bit older than your daughter. What Sapphira said makes a lot of sense and to a certain extent I'm saying the same things.
Anorexia is a complex issue and often related to not wanting to grow up. By starving the body it not only makes it look more childlike but also stops menstruation taking the woman back to a being a 'child'.
Could it be that she is not ready to be a woman and leave home because she has up until now had a happy home life but feeling the time has come when she should be out on her own? I wonder if Sapphira is thinking this man might represent a father figure who can support such a move yet she knows in her heart neither the relationship or the move is right.

I think it's a good decision not to go with the detective if you have already explored all the other options and come up with nothing. This man has either covered his tracks very well or he has an assumed identity. Not unusual for psychopath as they use anyone available for their parasitic behaviour.

That's a tricky one about the two professional points of view, I can see the merits of both and also your natural reaction as a parent.

As a parent the natural reaction is not to provide any encouragement or means to help your daughter see the man. If she was a child that is exactly the right response but is she a child or a woman? Firm boundaries are what give a child security however much they rebel against them. I always think of parenting as a 'dictatorship to a democracy' as the child grows up and learns to handle freedom to make choices.

Then there is the issue of rebellion, that in itself is a childlike reaction to parental concern, has she ever discussed the relationship with you as an adult to adult before it became obvious things were not right hence the rebellion as she feels it's impossible to 'talk' to you now?

As I write I'm just beginning to wonder whether she is pushing you to behave like the protective father but not really understanding why she is doing that. Does she feel insecure and that is a reason the anorexia? The more I think about it I get the feeling that this highly intelligent woman is worried about having total responsibility for her own life. She is facing a horrible dilemma, this man comes along when she is thinking she needs to become independent from her parents but why on earth leave that life where she is happy and secure????

Being refused the car-did she try to come up with a cogent argument why she should use it or again was the reponse just an excuse for a childlike reaction for you to protect her again. She will have a hard time finding a partner that cares and respects her as much as you do, I can imagine how she would feel about that and doesn't want to let go of what she has.

On a practical level if this man is a true psychopath he will not stay with your daughter long if she is starved of funds to provide for his needs. This is difficult as she might resent you for preventing her from helping him. I'm bearing in mind the big rift that could open up and building bridges will take longer the bigger it gets.

Does she have her own finacial means or is she still in education, I apologise if I have missed this in an earlier post? What about her friends, do she still see them or has he started isolating her from everyone else as he is with her family?

I do think time will solve a lot of these issues one by one as psychopaths are known for having many short lived relatonships but I just hope when the times comes and he leaves for good he doesn't take your daughter's fragile ego with him. She will need all the cushioning available ready for her fall. It would be idealistic thinking she will decide to get rid of him before he does.

I hope you can keep positive and I admire the way you are able to look past the present behaviour and not rise to it. It is the only way to show her that her family is still the same, it is her who has changed. She has the choice to slot back in whenever she chooses.

If your wife feels she would like to get some support we will respond to her a soon as possible if she posts on the forum.

Regards
Jan

Dear Sapphira and Jan -

Once more, thanks for your posts. They show a lot of depth and breadth and I am most grateful to you. You offer a lot of food for thought and let me respond to some of your latest points.

(1) Regarding what seems to be this guy's dominant motive, my guess, and its not more than a guess, is that its financial. Again, its based on several conversations with this guy over the course of around 10 days or so until we decided not to speak with him. He seemed to be pretty intelligent when speaking about financial things, talked about himself often in financially glowing terms ("my folks live in an expensive neighborhood", "I am part of a successful family business", etc). Plus, he seemed to incite my daughter against us financially as I mentioned in an earlier post. Additionally, being that he was at our house several times, he saw that we live a comfortable upper-middle class life. We maintain a very clean, pleasant, optimistic and tidy home - this is more a credit to my wife than anything to do with money, nevertheless our home exhibits a sense of comfort and well-being. For the record though, there is nothing flashy in our lifestyle, and we're not "rich", visibly or otherwise. The psychopath I'm sure noticed all this. He didnt talk in violent terms. Still he definitely talked "weird"on a number of occasions leaving us a sense of unease. I hope and pray you are right - that he will see he cant milk us for much, and then move on.

(2) The psychopath appears to be about 30 years old (vs my daughter, aged 22.5). There are signs he's a cocaine user. He had a running nose and cough while we saw him. One day, my wife peaked into his backpack and saw that the only thing there was a roll of toilet tissue.

(3) Your points regarding the longer-term anorexia issue is correct. Once, lets hope, the psychopath moves on, the underlying problems with my daughter of course will still remain. The issue you raised of separation fear is very intriguing, although somewhat complicated, and I think may possibly explain a relationship between the current episode with the psychopath and her anorexic situation for the last several months. Let me provide some more background which I think sheds more light on this direction. We live overseas in Israel. I was born and raised in the US, and my kids were born in the US as well, my wife is Israeli, as were my parents who emigrated to the US prior to my birth. Thus, we feel at home both in Israel and in the US. We've been living here for 17 years. I know that Israel is in the news a lot, but please filter that out. Day-to-day life here is actually pretty quiet and not too different from most other western countries (in marked contrast to what the media presents). My daughter expressed intent about 6 months ago to move to New York to study art at one of the universities there. She started taking an art prep program locally to develop a portfolio, as well as studying for the SAT entrance tests. She spent a lot of time in seclusion working on her paintings which probably wasn't good in retrospect because she became more and more socially isolated. She even wrote a book during this period, although she didn't let us read it. I actually tried to talk her out of her NY plans - (a) I suggested she get a BA locally and then consider going elsewhere if she wanted to continue after that (b) I couldn't finance all her tuition and living costs for a private US university ($50,000 year !!) - max, maybe half of it, (c) she was aiming for a couple very elite universities and I told her it was very competitive to get in - its not guaranteed she would get in. Nevertheless, she persisted with her plans. She initially wanted to live a year in NY and start studying in 2009. Anyway, she was scheduled to fly to NYC June 26, 2008 (just a week ago). She met the psychopath around June 3 (we think). That is, 3 weeks before departure. Hard to believe its a coincidence. Around June 5, she was already making extreme statements such as "This man is the greatest thing that ever happened to me" and "I see myself living the rest of my life with him". My guess is he right away started manipulating her telling her things she was in need of hearing. On June 6 she declared that she is canceling her plans for the US. Sapphira, all this definitely seems to show a strong indicator for the separation fear theory you presented, and this person acting as a catalyst towards successful separation. Another indicator towards separation fear is my wife's medical history. She has had non-Hodgkins lymphoma on-and-off since 1989 (almost 20 years). Over this time, she has had 5 occurrences of it. Each time, she was treated with chemo, but quickly recovered and went into full remission each time.(Thank God she has now been fine for the last 6 years.) But my daughter grew up with a mother that went in and out of this a number of times - this no doubt affected her and caused her fear.

I mentioned the separation fear theory as being very intriguing but also "complicated". Complicated because from ages 18 through 21, our daughter served in the army here. (This is an activity that is a norm amongst males & females here at that age.) Her military service was actually quite successful in that she voluntarily went on to become a field officer in military intelligence and received several awards of recognition including 2 from the army's chief-of-staff. She showed strong leadership skills and was responsible for around 40 women soldiers in the field, often in rugged and uncomfortable conditions. Ironically, she had to often deal with emotional / psychological issues of some of her soldiers. She came home for weekends typically once every 2 weeks. After leaving the army, she in fact lived on her own for 6 months, working as a waitress for the time being to save up a little money, but decided to return home in preparation for her plans leading up to going to the US. These points perhaps goes against the separation fear theory but is a point for 'perfectionist behavior theory' common amongst anorexics.

Bottom line, I think there is something to the "separation fear" playing into all of this - we'll have to pay attention to this going forward.

(4) Regarding what we hope will happen with our daughter once the psychopath winds his way out: As any loving parents would want, we want our daughter to be normal and happy. Right now, she's angry, confused, and not healthy. She could be broken-hearted if and when he soon leaves. Has something happened that is irrevocable ? I hope not. We're ready to forgive her wild behavior once he's gone. The most frustrating thing for us regarding the anorexia is that she adamantly refuses to admit she has any problem. Refuses to discuss it at all. I guess its a control issue, as they say. From what Ive read, most anorexics have trouble admitting they have a problem. This caused and causes stress at home as she gets progressively thinner. The challenge will be to somehow have her see that she needs to deal with this differently.

What can we aim for in the immediate term ? Hopefully the psychopath will move on. Until then, life seems like "white-water rafting" - we're just trying to stay on the raft, and make sure our daughter stays on her raft. If we get into calmer waters, we definitely will try to get a handle on the issues you have raised and discussed above.

Thank you all so much for your invaluable help.

Ace

Psychopath.S. Does this site need /accept donations ? Once things settle down for is, I definitely would like to contribute something should it be relevant.

Hello Ace,

I am about to go out for the day but wish to reply to you at least quickly before I go.
Thank you for clarifying things in such detail. I had to smile when I read your post. You have such a talented and determind daughter.

The later separation as teens usually mirrors the same way they reacted as toddlers. So if you recall how it was you may see similarities. To me what you say about her time away already doesn't necessarily conflict with what I was thinking. Separation is a process and like children when they go through their first separation stage as toddlers, it may involve two-ing and fro-ing. They run away from mother, then run back checking for reassurance. She may feel greater apprehension about 'going exploring' if she is concerned about mother during her absence. And what you said about your wife also makes sense in this regard. It does seem that moving away is a fraught issue for her and given these factors your role as bridge to the outer world will be significant. While her abilities as an adult are obvious, her inner little girl may require lots of assurance that all will be well 'at home' when she is gone. Just thinking, on some level she may even equate her mother's illness with her desire to separate as a child. Also, given her mother's illness, she may need to prove her strength and invulnerability. As I said, she may find it hard to express the vulnerability and fear she may secretly harbour, especially given her otherwise confident and capable demeanour. Children are very sensitive and she may have interpreted what happened to you wife in this way...But these are just my thoughts for you to consider.

Jan was right,I was thinking in terms of this man as a 'father figure'. The fact she did so well in an authoritary environment like the military also fits this in my mind. To me this suggests competence issues, and self-into-the-world matters and the role of the father as the bridge between her self and the world is all of this. It's like a ship moving out of the port to sea. Maybe she needs to know the tug boat is there for a while. And Jan's sense of her hoping for her prtective father is also along these lines.


When I asked about what you would hope things to be like once this person goes,I was meaning between yourself and your daughter. To me, this man is just sitting in the middle. What is really going on involves your daugther and her parents. I wonder what you might envisage with this man gone and your relationship redefined in some way, with regard to your daughter successfully going her own way too. Perhaps into a flat or to the US. The purpose of the ship is to sail, not remain in the safe harbour for ever. And it is tempting when the sea out there seems all to scary or is unsafe, to return to the safe harbour of the familar. However it is good to re-embark on that process of setting sail again once the destination has been changed or the fear is placated. Is going to the US too big a step right now or does she just need a 'tug' to help her on her way. I would be trying to focus on making a constructive change in this way, with heaps of reassurance and support from yourself then perhaps the 'need' for this man will fall away.

Hope this is of some help.

Best wishes.

Sapphira

Hi Ace,
There is a smile on my face....Sapphira wrote what I came to write... hwhawhwa this is often like that you see.... And let me be honest.The way Sapphira can put things into words is so exeptional, there is no topping there. So I just follow her words!!!

There is an other issue I like to adress instead.

There s a lot happening in your live and that of your close family.
A lot of people offer advise and all advise I read about in your post is good advise...
But it has to be so very confusing to you and your wife to have so many of them at once.
I can see reason and logic in all of them and what do you choose then?
Sapphira is so to the point when she talks about the anorexia and the psychological background of that disease. ( is that how you call it in english also?)
Reading about all the things you told us the same ideas came to my mind, no need to explain them again, for again. the way Sapphira can do that is much clearer then what I could have said.
There are also the two people with a degree in psychology and psychiatry... there is us here on the forum who point out several things..Is your head spinning already????

Your wife is currently without a job and has a lot of time on her hands.... Time to worry???

I always try not to worry unless I can solve something..Otherwise there is no point in it is there! That sounds very easy but takes time to exercise that and after a while it will give a lot of peace.
The clue is to keep close to your own feeling. Take in all the advise and let it be for a short while..think about it, figure things out for yourself , feel it on a deeper level and then when all is done, you most probably will end up knowing what to do.
We , on the forum, but all outsiders in this matter, can't take any responsebillity for what you deside to do..Only you can..... So be sure that whatever you deside to do is something that is close to who you are, how you live your life and consider all things.

The time you have now, before she returns, can be used in a very good way. I will explain by an example ok..that will makee it more clear...( I think in another posting I explained already, so excuse me for repeting myself..)

There are two shopkeepers..... They have simmilar shops and both are doing fine...
Now the time has come that things slow down and custumers stay away this time of year....
One of the shopkeepers is always looking at the door for people to enter but they don't... he gets depressed because of it and after a while he is in despair even for the people seem never to come back. The shop gets a bit dirty and the accounts are far behind....
The other shopkeeper is also not very happy with things slowing down but he starts wondering what to do about it...wants to use the time he has in an efficient way. So looking around carefully in his shop he discoveres some things that are too old and out of fasion on a few shelves. So he takes them out, cleans the shop, buys new stock and put it in a nice way in his shop. In the meantime he does his accounts and he is satisfied for using his time right.

When costumers return, which shop will they go to do you think?? The shop that is ready or the one who is smelly, dirty and with old things ?????

So what I mean to say is...Though there is not much you can do right now...You can prepair for the things that are coming. Like Jan and Sapphira pointed out already there will be no easy time then......
That is where it starts for you and your wife!!
So take time to calm down, learn a lot about both psychopathy but certainly about anorexia..Learn about the lies that come with both and the lack of selfesteem, look claer and honest at your own family dynamics and at how and when things seem to have changed for your daughter.( this may be a longer ago then you may think on first hand)
Do things that will make you stronger in your own mind and be at peace in your own mind and body....
That is a lot isn't it...But then, when she returns you will be ready and prepaired in a way she will never expect and you will be able to help her more and deeper. Indeed there is nothing you can do now...But as time comes you will be ready for all that will be there.

In the general discussions are a few exercises that could be of help for you and your wife..they really help but you have to practice them... no easy answers or way out again!

( 'discovery and healing' and 'there is a way out!')

Maybe it is a good idea for your wife to come and write also on the forum..there is no rule that only one family member may write, is there... She can use a nickanme so nobody will know who she is and this way it is safe to do...
Hope to hear form you soon....
Segaya

Hello Ace

Thank you for giving us such a comprehensive background to your daughter’s life. It is certainly much more complicated than I could have imagined.
I’m sorry to hear about your wife’s illness this must weigh heavily on your daughter’s mind. I’m not surprised she is reluctant to leave home.

Could you explain the ‘weird’ talking you experienced? Did you instinctively feel you were being manipulated and lied to?

Am I right in thinking that military service for young people in Israel is compulsory before going on to study? If so this would take away her choice to leave home and maybe the fear of leaving is far worse than the reality and once she was away she had a choice to return when she was ready.
She had a very successful career and took such a huge amount of responsibility at such a young age, it’s not surprising she has emotional problems now. It’s almost like PTSD that has presented itself as anorexia.
To do the job she did must have taken a huge amount of self control, self discipline and courage. She had responsibilities far beyond her years and now she is only responsible for herself. It must be difficult to relinquish responsibility for others so maybe that is one of the many reasons for over-controlling herself. She also can’t control her mother’s illness and it’s probably the thing she wants to control most.

Your daughter is such a high achiever, she puts herself under a lot of pressure. I know you will probably say it’s not realistic to suggest it to her but would she consider cognitive behaviour therapy?

She worked away for a short while but returned home after 6 months-again she had the choice. If the day had come for her to leave for University she MAY have changed her mind so we will never know the answer to that. The man could be a convenient excuse. It sounds as though she was a very sensitive girl and has internalised so much in so few years and is going through an extremely troubled time when most people of her age are out enjoying themselves. She has had to become an adult too soon. I have complete faith that she will come through this when her age catches up with her experience. She has been in a parental role and now she is a ‘child’ again. How difficult is that?

I’m pleased you mentioned cocaine, I was reluctant to ask you if you had any suspicions that your daughter might be involved with drugs, even diet pills.
Anorexia is like an addiction and all addicts are in denial until they reach rock bottom so it’s not at all unusual to deny it. Admitting to it means you have to give up control to someone else to help the recovery.

I wonder if there has ever been a case of a psychopath picking on a poor victim, I have never heard anyone say this and if you read the posts here nearly everyone says they were financially secure and the psychopath drained them.
I think you have the upper hand in the financial aspect of this situation so I would be inclined to follow the advice of the psychiatrist about being a firm parent. This is the one area you are in control in all of this and the thing that could bring it to a swifter conclusion.

I hope we hear positive things from you as time goes on.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan -

Thanks for your post. I'll try to respond to some of your questions, and hopefully include some responses to earlier posts from Sapphira and Segaya. I'll update you on some of the latest developments as well which I'd like to get your feedback on.

Regarding my wife's illness, of course its been a major thing. But, I should say that my wife is a woman of very strong internal strength and character. If you saw her, you wouldnt believe that she went through 5 bouts of lymphoma over almost 20 years. She looks healthy physically and emotionally is fine as well. Ive known, and you probably have too, people who had leukemia for 10 to 20 years. They always looked sick, sometimes more so, sometimes less so - but it was apparent they always had a problem. With my wife, when she was sick, she was treated typically with 4 to 6 months of chemo and then spent say another 6 to 8 months to physically get composed again, but then looked healthy after that. So, over 20 years, she looked sick maybe 25% of that time, but the rest of the time was fine. And, she's been fine for the last 6 years.

As to the psychopath's weirdness, note the following incidents:
(1) A couple days after meeting this guy, my daughter came home with a snake in an aquarium. It was a "gift" from him. It was a strange looking snake. I asked him about it, and he said it was a king snake from California. I'm originally from California, and I remembered king snakes - at least they arent poisonous. I checked images on Google, and sure enough its a king snake. I dont know how it got to Israel but it did. Right away, the snake caused tension at home. My wife, other daughter and I objected to having the snake at home. Like many if not most people, we feel uncomfortable around snakes, even more so having one at home. My daughter insisted she has the right to have whatever she wants in her room. We countered that we all live together in the same house and have to be respectful of what the family as a whole finds objectionable. Within a day or two, my wife asked the psychopath to take the snake away. He said he cannot, because he doesnt accept return gifts. I asked my daughter why she wants a snake in her room. She said that the psychopath said it will help her overcome her 'fears'. I asked her what kind of fears does she want to overcome, and she refused to elaborate. In any event, after the snake was around for about a week, my wife issued an ultimatum. If the snake isnt gone within 48 hours, we will sell it to the local pet store, and give whatever they pay for it to my daughter. Sure enough, the next day, the psychopath took the snake back. Prior to picking up the snake, he called us (with my daughter present with him) to tell us that he is picking up the snake but that we owe him an apology and a thank you. For what ? we asked. For damages and stress to him, my daughter and the snake. We should be thankful, in his words, that he is not filing suit against us for the equivalent of around US$30,000 !! We told him effectively that he cannot threaten us like that, and he should be ashamed at the nerve he has to think he has rights within our home. He then proceeded to tell us we are in fact not the owners of our home - that our home and everything else in the universe belongs to the Almighty.

(2) A number of times I asked my daughter what she claims is so great about this guy. Amongst other things, she said he is very "spiritual". I asked how so, but she didnt say. He mentioned on a couple occasions that he has "healed" people from serious disease including the secretary of his family doctor, as well as another person I cant recall. Upon meeting my other daughter for the first time, he told her in a condescending way that he is "a very spiritual person" and doesnt have time and patience for most of the nonsense that most kids in their early 20s deal with. My other daughter told me after that -"Daddy, you know me, I never say this after just meeting someone - but I just dont like this guy".

(3) The day we threw the psychopath out of our house, his last words to us were "You will regret you did this. You will beg me later to come back to this house."

Regarding military service over here, yes it is compulsory. All things being equal, the army here can for some be a challenging experience but I dont think it leads to PTSD, at least not for the women soldiers. Like soldiers anywhere, PTSD is more of an issue as a side-effect of actual fighting. My daughter wasnt exposed to any of that. She was responsible for tracking villages for terrorist activity via remote visual tracking cameras. She was stationed several kilometers away from the cameras. 99% of the time nothing is actually happening. The other 1% of the time her team would escalate the suspicious signals to higher-ups. And most of those times they were false alarms. As I said earlier, she took her army period seriously, and was given a lot of 'control' - ie, responsibility and management of 40 other girls. When she finished her service, I told her that she has great management skills, and if she wanted to, one day she could be a very good manager in the civilian sector. Having 'control' and then losing it is a buzz word for anorexia - there may be something to that. To manage 40 people in say high-tech which I work in requires years of experience plus an MBA degree.

On the cocaine issue, this was an immediate suspicion from the psychiatrist. He asked me a battery of questions, and concluded that she isnt addicted to it although she may have used it on occasion with him. My feeling is that she currently not using it.

The whole anorexia thing seems to be getting worse and not better. Over the last 2 weeks my daughter simply has almost stopped eating at home. Im not sure what she eats outside, but I cant believe its very much. I know she has tried to contact modelling agencies in the last week or two (when she was healthy she was an attractive girl, although I wouldnt say stunning, or a definite model).There is no way this could lead anywhere in her current physical state. The point however is she thinks she looks good and in total denial of her continuing anorexic state. Jan, maybe you are right - anorexics have to hit rock-bottom before they wake up. For me this is a major stressor. It is shocking and frightening and am not sure where it all ends up. 10% of anorexics die of their problem.

All this is compounded by her complete refusal to acknowledge any problem whatsoever. Today, I tried to take a different approach to improve communications with her. I sat down and wrote her a letter. It was a sentimental letter from Dad to daughter. Nothing judgemental or negative in it. Just thoughts of good old days in the past, some compliments about her character, and a loving hope that we can mend our relations and have a happier future. Last summer, she and I took a really nice vacation together. Just the 2 of us. We went to New York City, from there to the beautiful nature in the Canadian Rocky Mountains, and afterwards to visit family in San Diego and San Francisco, California. Great trip. I mentioned it in the letter reminding her of the special time we had together not so long ago. I put it on her bed in the morning. In the evening I asked her if she read it. Right away, she was mad at me and said there is no place for a letter like that right now. I asked why ? She said because "I dont trust her and have insulted her boyfriend". I replied that I trust her in general and always have, but I simply dont trust the whole phenomenon of this new boyfriend. I dont know where he lives, where he works, his story is very suspicious. Her response: "What do you care about all that ?" My response: "A normal Dad would want to know some minimal info about who his daughter is seeing. Just simply give me one piece of information thats concrete about him." Her response: "You dont trust me". Me: "I dont think I insulted your boyfriend. But in any event, what do you suggest we do to relieve the implied insult ?" She:"You and mommy need to apologize to him and me !! Now get out of my room and leave me alone !!". (Psychopath wants to somehow worm back into the game).

Jan, the above paragraph I think answers the question you asked: "Did you instinctively feel you were being manipulated and lied to ?" The above exchange is simply not my daughter. Shes not there. I feel his intrusion in the whole thing.

Anyway, all this is very hard on my wife and I , as well as our other daughter. But we will never give in to this wacko psychopath. Question is, what is left for us to do ? Our daughter hardly speaks to us, she's mad at us, her anorexia is progressing. Help !!! The psychiatrist says "dont budge, dont compromise, he's dangerous and evil. She needs this tough-love and one day she will be forever grateful to you for it." For now though, its very very painful...Please any more suggestions out there...

Regards

Ace