Hi ace,
The thing that cmae tomind for me whenI read about your aughter managing 40 others..
I recognize it so well. Me? I do so well with othr people and a lot of times in my live i couldn't solve my own problems. This was whenI was around the same age your daughter is now. In the years I have learned to take care of myself. It is like everyone else was importend but not me. I use to get in the middle of physical fights from othrs. 'Hurt me, I don't care, but don't hurt somebody else for they can't take it...'
Why? I don't know...The feeling of not being worth anything I guess.... This thought was instald early on in childhood already and is very hard to loose.
Maybe that is what is happening. I don't know, it just seems that I know what she is doing.
It is so hard to be in this space of time where you are now. But really.. hold on for at this time thre is nothingmore you can do...
Just try to go through the days as well as possible and be patient.
It is so very frustrating to do nothing and yet it is the only thing you can do.... This is the fast way to solve it...Any interverence from you and your family will drive her further away.
How well you intended, the letter didn't come across as you mean it... That is the proof that whatever love and protection you can offer to her, she will not accept is as long as he has this influence on her.
Let go..... it sounds so very easy and it is so hard to do.
People who were vey close to me told me to 'let go' from my sons 7th year on...That is almost 20 years ago..When he ws 17 , just 17, I through him out of my house..and still I didn't let go...didn't even know what letting go means... Not looking after him anymore, not taking control over him with food washing his clothes and so on, didn't mean I let him go.
Letting go has to do with emotionally letting go. In the end it has to do with respect...
And it is hard,very hard to do... My son was and is in and out of jail, so he can'ttake care of himself in my opinion..... He is irrisponsable and not eating well, not clean on his body or clothes, not paying his bills and therefore in a lot of depts......I think now it is up to 60.000 euro's....and addicted to drugs....( I know about cocaine as well but maybe even heroine...i am not sure)How can you let go of a child that is like that????
maybe it is my way of believing that everything has a purpose....
Maybe this is prepairing your daughter for something bigger... Wo can tell...

The thing that is importend now is that you hold on to eachother. Your wife, your other daughter and you....
When one is weak the others have to jump in and help...
it's taking one day at a time...not looking too far in the future... Planning things to do without her as a family.. the time will come she will e back.
When you al are tired then for all the worrying what will you do? So htat is why I told you in the other posting to be well prepaired.... Knowledge is one thing, looking after yourself another...
When you do like this you will be ready the day she comes back to home again. Tehn you will take your part in solving , but now..... No, I don't see anything that you can do..
Maybe others have different ideas???

You can write about everything here, also when being angry and frustrated sad or in dispair..... we are here!!!
Segaya

Hello Ace

Your wife must be an incredibly strong woman to deal with her illness like she does. She has brought up two children despite such a serious condition. So your daughter has seen her mother being ill throughout most of her life, maybe she has lived with the thought she could lose her mother at any time and hasn’t recognised the terror that must hold for a child. Does your daughter consider how her behaviour must be affecting your wife’s health?

That brings me back to PTSD. I just felt there are some similarities with your daughter’s behaviour so I have been doing some research and any traumatic event can trigger it if a person is pre-disposed. Everyone suffers to a greater or lesser extent with any condition and may display different symptoms.

This is some of the information I came across. I tried to change font for the articles to make it more readable but I wasn't able to. (Maybe get yourself a cup of coffee but before you tackel this.)

PTSD-This is an "acute stress reaction".
Even hearing about the unexpected injury or violent death of a family member or close friend can start PTSD.
People who have not been directly involved in a trauma of this kind may still experience levels of distress as high as those who were.
It can be just too upsetting to re-live your experience over and over again. So you distract yourself. You keep your mind busy by losing yourself in a hobby, (Anorexia?) working very hard, or spending your time absorbed in crossword or jigsaw puzzles. You avoid places and people that remind you of the trauma, and try not to talk about it.

You may deal with the pain of your feelings by trying to feel nothing at all - by becoming emotionally numb. You communicate less with other people, who then find it hard to live or work with you.
Lack of trust in other people - and the world in general - is central to complex PTS-You say that your daughter uses the phrase ‘you don’t trust her.’

How does it come about?
The earlier the trauma happens, the more it affects psychological development. Some children cope by being defensive or aggressive, while others cut themselves off from what is going on around them.
Personal circumstances
Your personal history can make you more prone to PTSD. If a traumatic event triggers memories of an earlier distressing experience, the impact is effectively doubled in intensity. Similarly, if you are already going through emotional problems, you are also much more vulnerable. Your temperament may also have a lot to do with it.
‘found to be suffering from PTSD, either alone or in combination with other problems, such as alcohol misuse’ Anorexia?
Stress responses that are bottled up over months or years become deeply ingrained and may cause serious problems. Sometimes, people turn to alcohol or drugs in an attempt to blot out painful feelings and memories. Individuals may remain in a state of extreme tension long after the trauma has passed. They may find themselves avoiding situations, in case they remind them of their trauma, so that life becomes increasingly restricted. Anorexia/control?

Behavioural therapy
This involves going though the trauma, repeatedly, with a psychologist or therapist, so that people re-experience the emotions they felt at the time. It’s important to go through the details of the trauma many times until they’ve dealt with the feelings and feel comfortable and no longer anxious.

This is a very good link to a lot more information.
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=293#

Is your wife’s illness openly discussed within the family? If so how does your daughter deal with conversations about it?

The following information about eating disorders which you probably already know about but this was more for my benefit to find out about how these conditions may be connected.
Anorexia
Certain personality features are common in people with eating disorders. These include:
• low self-esteem, where how you think about your body shape affects your self-worth
• a loss of interest in other people
• trying to be perfect
• mood problems, especially depression
• mental health problems such as obsessive compulsive disorder (where you can't stop thinking about or doing certain actions)
If you have these personality features, an eating disorder may give you a sense of control and achievement. It can be triggered by a major stressful event, such as leaving for college.
Psychotherapy is frequently used in the treatment of anorexia. Psychotherapy helps you to identify the feelings and fears that caused you to stop eating, and helps you develop a healthier attitude towards food and your body.
A course of psychotherapy usually lasts six months, but if you need a more long-term therapy, motivational enhancement therapy is an option. This also aims to change your attitude towards food into a more healthy and positive one.
You may also find it helpful to have therapy that involves your family. This helps everyone in the family to understand the disorder properly and support each other.
Sources
• Eating disorders. NHS Library for Health. Clinical Knowledge Summaries. http://www.cks.library.nhs.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• Eating disorders. The Royal College of Psychiatrists. http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• Eating disorders - core interventions in the treatment and management of anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa and related eating disorders. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health. 2004. National Clinical Practice Guideline CG9. http://www.nice.org.uk
• What is anorexia nervosa? Beating Eating Disorders (beat). http://www.b-eat.co.uk, accessed 2 January 2008
• World Health Organisation (WHO). The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders - Diagnostic criteria for research. Switzerland: WHO, 1993
• Morris J, Twaddle S. Anorexia nervosa. BMJ 2007; 334:894-898. http://www.bmj.com
• Collier J, Longmore M, Scally Psychopath. Oxford Handbook of Clinical Specialities. 6th ed. Oxford, 2003
I can understand why your daughter is applying for a modelling job, probably pressure from the man but also to find out if she is ‘valuable’ and searching for self esteem. As you say in her present condition the chances are she will be rejected which will cause more damage.

Denial is a huge part of any addiction and I really don’t know how anyone can break through that barrier and make the person see they are in denial. It has to come from them but the pain of watching and waiting for the realisation to happen is a nightmare. That is something I do know! There must be some support groups for parents of anorexic children like there are for the families of alcoholics.

1 The snake incident-how bizarre! How arrogant of this man to say he doesn’t take back ‘gifts’ and threaten legal action. I would think he gave a ‘gift’ like that to cause tension in the family. What a strange thing to say about your home belonging to the almighty. It sounds as though you are not the least intimidated by him which is great.
2 Claiming to heal….being very spiritual….No wonder she doesn’t reply to your questions, what could she say to ‘prove’ any of this? It must put her under a lot of pressure as she is intelligent enough to consider fact as opposed to fiction and has nothing to offer as an explanation.

I’m not surprised your other daughter took a dislike to him, we have very strong instincts and can sense when someone is not right.
3 Saying you will beg him to come back!!! Unbelievable!!!
The strength of his manipulation must be daunting.

Your daughter must be in the depths of depression and not seeing reality but knowing deep down things are terribly wrong with her life. Reading your letter must have touched a nerve hence her reaction. Trust is a two way street, she has to meet you half way with that so you are justified asking for information about this man. Could the ‘apology’ situation be implemented to get an opportunity to let him drop himself in it in front of her?

This may be something that you feel is not appropriate for me to say and I apologise in advance if you do…you and your wife are wonderful parents but perhaps you have over-protected your daughter from the seriousness of her illness and it may be time to let your daughter know that the consequences of her behaviour could put too much stress on her mother. As we know stress can weaken the immune system. If this man is so spiritual and caring then he would put your wife’s health before himself…perhaps ‘give him the opportunity to prove himself? ’ As we know this is not possible but could be a chance to let your daughter open her eyes and start to see again.

I wish we could offer you more practical help. Has she got any friends you know she trusts who could you speak to?

Regards
Jan

Hi Forum -
Thanks again for your continuing posts. My wife and I read each and every one of them carefully and consider each in detail. I told them about your suggestions that she start writing too, but for now she's content having me do the writing. Occasionally, she asks me to write something on her behalf. This site has turned into a form of postive therapy for both her and myslef and already a lot of good has come out of it.

Segaya, your suggestion, which I know you also told me about earlier, of somehow disengaging until my daughter somehow starts to change makes sense. Of course its very hard to do, but it makes sense - it can be a daily goal. Its the only way to stay sane through this, and it also deters the psychopath from getting into us too much. I remind myself that he is an evil and abnormal human being, and my daughter is a disturbed and unbalanced human being. A relationship betwen 2 people like that cant stay too cohesive for long, at least thats what I want to believe. And that at least reassures me a little bit. Segaya, your advice of living one day at a time - each day to itself, not worrying too much about the future, and my wife, daughter and I being there to help each other is practical and smart advice. Your description about your son was also very valuable because it gave me a chance to see what other people who are writing me have faced and are facing. I'd be happy to hear more from others if anyone wants to share. Also, in an earlier post, you suggested techniques to ease up. My wife practices meditation (visualization, relaxation, etc) - shes been doing it for a few years and I know this has been very good for her and she told me she continues with it through this crisis. I'm trying to encourage her to get out of the house more, which will help her as well. For me, I have for many years been a jogger, running 30 to 40 minutes 4 or 5 times a week. It keeps me healthy and gives me the 'endorphin' effect causing me to feel good, sometimes to greater degree, sometimes to a lesser degree. I try to eat alot of fresh fruit and vegetables - I see the cause-and-effect of eating well and feeling well. Last but not least, I am a person who finds much benefit in my religion. It helps me accept irrational situations better, and a reassurance that there is meaning to everything even though I in my limitation may not always know the meaning. Finally, as I said earlier, this forum also helps me out a lot on a daily basis.

Jan your discussion about PTSD could be relevant. Since my daughter has shut down her communications with us as well as shutting down her eating habits and is latched on to this guy makes me think that she is in a sort of traumatic spell. Coincidentally, I myself lost my mother to cancer when I was a tender 5 year old !! In the middle of one of my wife's bouts with cancer, I went into clinical depression. I remember feeling in a state of semi-shock for a few months. Luckily, I was guided to a psychiatrist who helped me with medication and therapy. It did the trick and I have been fine and stable ever since. Unfortunately for my daughter, we are at the mercy of just looking at her right now, cant say much to her, she's kind of like a puppy who keeps barking at us and wont let us get near her. She somehow has to transition but its so hard right now. Things like behavior therapy, talking with an anorexic specialist, talking with a friend, telling my daughter that stress is not good for Mom, etc arent happening for the time being because she just refuses to hear it. Like Segaya says, we have to detach a little before we can reattach, otherwise we will be more and more miserable. Jan, I dont think its a good idea that we bring this guy back in for a staged apology. Remember who he is. He'll love the opportunity for new legitimacy and more manipulation. He's not spiritual and hes not caring. No way. He'll never get that chance from us. He's a psychopath. Period.

Now to another subject. The last day I have started reconsidering hiring out a detective. All the reasons the forum suggested earlier for not hiring one are still valid. However,here are new points I started thinking about: (1) If something really bad happened to my daughter, if I didnt have the slightest clue who and where this guy is afterwards, I would never forgive myself, (2) I spoke with a detective today, and mentioned some of your points about the futility of tracking this guy. However, he mentioned a very intriguing point. Once more is known about him, and how he interacts with my daughter, he said there are ways where scenarios can be created where the two of them can be broken apart without either of them knowing who "set up" the scenario. All this can cost us serious money, but some of my family members have already offered, in their goodness, to help defray the costs. Parting with several thousand dollars wont be fun, but it wont put me in debt and wont in the big picture cause serious damage to our financial state. My wife is less inclined to go for this, but her family is pressuring me to change her mind. I will raise these new points with her tonight and hear what she has to say. Meantime, what do any of you say about these new points ?

Regards to you all

Ace

Hi Ace, giving someone a snake is the weirdest thing I have heard of unless someone (can't imagine who) was in a snake club. It sounds to me that giving the snake he knew that was one thing for sure that would affect the entire family.

From what I want to add about anorexia is that it is one thing a person can do to be in control of something and that something is food. My best guess he is telling her she is fat and not good enough until she loses weight even if she is already thin.

She could have anorexia or bulemia, a dentist can tell if she has bulemia.

I am glad you found us and have been receiving support.

Di

Hi Ace, and wife,
I am so glad that you both found a way to get some relaxation. Doens't matter if it comes from exercising fysically or from meditation, as long as you do something to relax your mind and do something to get some strenght from. it is so very importend to look after yourself, especially in these kind of situations. And unfurtunatally it is one of the first things we seem to forget to do!!!

I see what you mean with what you are saying about the detective..Don't forget although the man seems to make sence...he is coming also from a point that he wants the employment?

it is nice of your family that they offer to help with finances if necessary but the part that they asked you to convince your wife doesn't feel good to me!!!
Call me crazy..; If your wife is meditating for years, she will be very intuitive. Being that means she can feel more then probably can be put into words, That depends on how good she is in putting feelings into words. If she strongly objects against this plan, then please listen carefully to her!!!
Mothers 'know more' then can be exprest often and most of the times she, the mother, is right. When it comes to her children she is by far the specialist in how they feel,why they act like they do ..sometimes mothers don't know what exactly is wrong but by heart they know what to do, without being able to be concrete about it.

Ofcourse there is the fear of not knowing what will hapen to your daughter. Not knowing where this man lives and what he does for a living is making you like being blind and deaf.
I have the following questions;
What makes that you think this man,the detective can do more then anyone else if it comes to breaking these two up? How much experience does the detective has with psychopaths? This is very importend!! Like we explained before...; don't think this will be easy. One of the things why they, the psychopaths, are so hard to get to is there abillity for not feeling, no concious. That means someone who is going to go up against a psychpath has to be a psychopath himself AND more intelligent than the one he is up against. Not all psychopaths are as intelligent, that is not what I mean..They just think in such a different way then we, the normal people do...That is what makes it so very hard to live with them..That is exacly the problem!
( sometimes I hate it that english is not my own language, I can't express myself like I want....)
I can't tell you how hard it is to predict what will happen next when a psychopath is involved in a situation. You can think of so many things but never the thing the psychopath is thinking of. The only thing you can do is prepair for something bad to happen...
Don't be scared because I think the bad thing happend for you already. I trust your intelligent daughter that when things get worse she will get out all by herself. As we concluded before; She knows!!! The only thing that is stopping her for leaving him is her own mind. So that would mean you are not up against fighting the psychopath, but up against her, or rather, her way of thinking at the moment. Her state of mind is the most importend thing that keeps her hanging in there.
It still is true that nobody can do anything to another person without that person cooperating.
That is; somebody can hurt you, as long as you let that perosn hurt you.... That way somebody has power over somebody else as long as that other person allows it!!!
This is a universal thruth that also concerns your daughter.
Maybe she can't put it into words but it is a knowledge we all do have... She knows that she is welcome back if she wants...The letter made it even more clear. You came too close to her emotions and probably that is why she fight you after reading it!!
If she woudn't have cared about the letter, she would have desposit it and never mentioned it afterwards.....

The more I think about it, the more I am sure that the difference in live for her is going to do the trick. What I mean is...;
The difference in what she knows live to be... at home with loving parents, a nice sister, a in peace and a strong bound between all the persons involved and now the situaiton as it is with this psychopath... She is fighting it, but still feels the gape that is there.. This will make it more difficult for her to stay in that situation. She knows , like we all do, that if this would be right she wouldn't fight so much and wouldn't be so much in problems like she is now... something is off, and she is struggling to get it right.. She soon enough will know she can't change him and then will make up her own conclusion.

I smilled at what the man said to you...Your house isn't yours??...Oke fair enough..But then why brag about his rich family and the good job he has...it's not his own is it????
Hang in there and take courage!!!
Segaya

Hi Segaya -

Thanks for your letter and thanks for the nice compliments on my wife. Youre right about her, she has excellent intuition which many people in her life have noticed. You have excellent intuitive skills as well as we see in your many posts.

Segaya, my wife asked me to ask your opinion on the following subject about our daughter. For the last 3 weeks, she has been looking for an apartment to rent in the city where she works. Its about an hour away from the suburb we live in. We know she looks through the Internet listings daily. Although the rental market is a little bit tight, there are apartments out there. However, my wife with her intuition is starting to get suspicious. Our daughter usually makes pretty quick decisions. Going back and forth by bus to our house for the time being is not easy. Besides, the city is popular with young people for renting. My wife is starting to feel that as our daughter gets close to closing on renting an apartment for herself, the psychopath is coming with reasons each time to cancel. My wife is starting to believe the psychopath does not want our daughter to move out of the house. What do you think ??

By the way, your English is fine - I understand everything you have to say !!

Thanks

Ace

Hi ace and wife...
ohh this man is tricky.... don't you see... The moment she moves out of your house he doesn't has acces to your money any more....
If he needs money now, he tells her to go and ask you for it. When she lives on her own she has to spend her own money also on the rent and her food and everything else she will need. There will be less for him to spend .
Probably he will not even ask her to pay for things but will manipulate her into it by saying forinstance that it is normal to pay for each other. ('only at the moment I don't have enough due to work related things that in the end will bring a lot of money so for the mean time,. can you pay...?)Or when they go out, she is paying for her own part. Going dutch is how it is called isn't it??..( while dutch don't do that as a general habit!!!)
There is also a chance he doesn't want her too close and too depending on him... Like it is now is just good for him, every change will set him back.
On top of it all, psychopaths love to disturbe..the moment she is on her own he can upset her, but not you... You did the unthinkable..You told him to go... he is not allowed to enter your house, so he will do everything possible to make you miserable....
Be sure that whatever reason he has to object agains her moving to her own appartment, it will have nothing to do with him taking care of her, or worry about her, it for sure wil have to do with him..... But where he is coming from, whatever reason he has is in the dark, but it is never out of love, care or concern for his girlfriend! Another possibillity; If she is near more people of her own age...as you discribe the place she wants to move to ,she will see different things, different people with other opinions.... If they, the new friends she will make, or the old ones who will see more of her relationship, see what is happening to your daughter, there is a big change they will warn her about him. He can't have that!!!
As long as it is only you, her parents and sister who are objecting, he can tell her you are stupid, it is just parents who want control over their child and she isn't a child anymore blablabla..you get the picture... but if it become more people telling her this then he will loose grip on her very soon.
it will be very hard to isolate her when she is living so near many of her age group. So there is danger for him when she really moves to live on her own.
Another possibillity ( you can never think of enough with a psychopath in the picture...)
If she has her own appartment, she probably will ask him to come and stay for at least a while.....if this will happen, he looses control also. Now she is living with you, when she is at home he is free to do whatever he wants... Living on her own means she is more in control then she is now..he has to make up more excuses to avoid her.
he knows also how depending she is by now... And that, my dear friends is something he can't use.. So all the reasons for him to discourage her for moving on in live.
Yes, psychopaths do want peole to depend on them, but not all the way, not to the point it will control their own moving around.. So from whatever angel I look at this picture...it is bad news for him....
Does this mean it is good for her to move on?????
I don't know... considering the anorexia; This will give her a ticket to freedom ... There will be nobody to control what she is eating.... As discussed before; when the eating disorder indeed has to do with becoming an adult and the difficult time that gives her then maybe it is a good thing.. There are so many things to consider in this situation that it is hard to say things about it when not knowing the whole picture... ( for us here on the forum that is)
As far as the motivation of the psychopath; it is only seen from his point of view that he doesn't like her to move to her own appartment!!!!And be sure this point of view is bad news always!!!

I am so very happy this forum is helping you both so much..I think that is exactly why Dianna has started this. We all are concerned about peole who are truly in trouble because of a psychopath in their lives. We all know what that is and what you bump in to. Oke htere are always differences in the situations but there is always recognision and if we can be of help we will try.
love Segaya

Hello Ace and wife

I’m so pleased we are talking to you both and it would be nice if we had a ‘name’ for you, Ace’s wife.

I so understand your frustration and need to find an answer, that was me not so long ago. My partner’s son is a fledgling psychopath (he no longer lives with us) and I was going round in circles trying to find a solution to an unsolvable problem. In the end the solution was for the person with the psychopathic behaviour to get out of my life. I wish this could happen to you and soon. No doubt it will eventually happen but living through the nightmare in the meantime is incredibly difficult.

I think you are right to believe this dysfunctional relationship cannot be sustained with two dysfunctional people. Your daughter’s problem is temporary but I don’t think the man will change.

Segaya always has a great insight into the deeper issues and I’m pleased you take her advice, she is a very wise woman. It’s good that you have a faith that sustains you, we all need something to believe in something to justify our actions. Keeping the body healthy is essential to having a healthy mind. I know Segaya mentioned the self help techniques she uses and posted on the forum and I highly recommend them. It helped me enormously to deal with the legal problems I have by giving me an inner strength I didn’t know was possible.

She is so right about detaching but ready to catch her when she lets herself fall.

Losing your mother at 5 years old must have left a huge emotional gap in your life, did you have a sibling to share this with or did you have to deal with this with just a grieving father?

I do understand why you would not let this person get on the stage to perform, I was thinking that if he had that chance he may make a fool of himself and expose himself as the person he really is. I’m so impressed that your opinion can’t be changed, you obviously know what you are dealing with so clearly. I know it’s not possible for a psychopath to be spiritual and caring, maybe you thought I had misread that information.

Wouldn’t it be good if you could suggest therapy to your daughter and she agreed?? I’m so disillusioned with professionals who advocate these things but have they ever lived with a person like this or is their learning just from text books? I think we all know the answer to this!

About your decision to hire a detective….you will do what you feel is right and if it’s right for you then you need to follow your instincts. The reasons you give are valid and what is money for anyway? If you feel you will have regrets if you don’t do this then it’s something that will prey on your mind for a long time to come. Doing ‘what if’ is not a positive thing to do, it never answers the question.
Only you know what is right for you and your family but whatever you choose your family will always get our support.

I wish you all some peace from all your problems. Woman to woman - Mrs Ace- you don't need any more problems so I hope we can offer you some support.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan, Segaya, and our other forum friends -

Thanks once again for your kind words - its helps us get through the day.

Jan, I am sorry about the story with your partner's son. Being around a pyschopath for 10 days was more than enough for me. I cannot imagine the hardship of being coerced to be around a psychopath on a long-term basis. I'm sure life for your partner has not been a piece of cake with a son like that. Segaya's story of her son also sounded very hard. Having a child like that in your proximity for many long years must being emotionally very tough. In Segaya's case, it is clear from her writings, that she became a very wise woman from her experience. One story I can somewhat compare it to a little bit is that of my late step-brother. He became suddenly ill with schizophrenia at around age 14. Its not related to psychopathy, but my guess is that the overwhelming parental burden of being responsible for a child with conditions lie these reach the same levels of misery. He died an early death at around 33. The years in between were sheer hell for my parents. He was often irrational and occasionally violent. He couldn't be placed in a mental health facility simply because he didn't want to be in such a place. He could not be forced to take medication which could have helped him in a major way, also, because he simply didn't want to take it. The law in the US was on his side on that and as a result he was at home most of the time, except for a few times when he ended up in jail or hospitalized because of being in a psychotic state. He died violently as a result of an incident involving police brutality. Afterwards, my step-mother actually sued the police and won her case. This took amazing courage and persistence, because the odds of winning a suit against the police in the US are quite low. Not to mention the emotional pain of going through a trial like that. One of the first questions I asked our psychiatrist is if there could be a genetic link between schizophrenia and our daughter's current unusual behavior and he completely ruled out any link.

Somehow I feel a little better today than I have for a long time. Not that anything special happened. Maybe forum members suggesting that I have to detach a bit is starting to sink in. Segaya's last analysis of the dynamics of my daughter's search for an apartment - and how this is an apparent threat to the psychopath makes complete sense to my wife and I and made us feel a little better also. More independence for her, more exposure to people in general, less involvement indirectly for us with him, less potential money to squeeze by him, etc all sounds true. I am pretty sure eventually she will find an apartment. Its too much of a commuting hassle for her, she's not eating anything here, and whatever apartment manipulation he does I think can only go so far in this case - at least thats my hope. How it will affect her anorexia is an open question. A friend of my wife told her recently that she knows an anorexic young woman who went to the US for a few years for studies. There she recovered and returned to normal weight and behavior. However, upon returning here she started to regress again and now is borderline anorexic but remains stable. So, maybe if our daughter changes her environment it will help, but again I really don't know.

By the way, I asked my wife to come up with a 'forum name' so I don't have to keep calling her 'my wife'. Hopefully she'll give me one in the next day or so. Meantime, she's keeping up with your posts and mine.

Regards to all

Ace

Hi Ace and wife,
Take it from me;We are so happy to be of little help for people who really need it on the forum! It never can be too much can it..especially if this psychopathy is coming from nowhere in your live suddenly. There are so many questions that rais, so many situations to consider, so many feelings to deal with!!!
I must say that from my point of view...this forum, I think you and your wife are doing a great job in coping with this whole situation!!!!
Sometimes it is hard to say what possible actions one can take for not everybody will really consider things but will throw it all away just like that or they will blindly follow what is told. Non of these are the correct thing to do. There is nobody here in the same situation as you are, so everybody must take from the advise what is needed or modle it into something else that is usable....

I feel so happy that you have such a good day for that is exactly what we need, to go on.
I think it also means you are doing the right thing, for otherwise you wouldn't feel at ease at all...You would have doubts and a feeling of being nervous if it was wrong what you are doing.....( I see your wife nodding her head!!!)
So take courage from that.

I read what you are telling about your brother..... You had quit a hard live too I think!!! Loosing your mother at such a young age and then having to deal with a schizofrenic brother.... I think, but that is me, maybe others will not agree, that it doesn't matter all that much where live experience or feelings of pain,frustration, being alone in the world and so on, are coming from.....what matters is how we deal with them. Do we learn our lives lessons or aren't we...?o we get to know how we, ourselves, really are in depth??? How does it form us as human beings and what are we doing with all we have learned..? Are we throwng it away or do we make others benefit from it too....??

This brings me back to the situation with your daughter....She has to learn her lessons in live. They differ from the lessons you have had..but still they have to be learned anyway....
I learned forinstance that all that happens in my live has a purpose. No matter how hard the lessons were, all were needed to make me the person I am now..And take it from me..I am a much better person than I was years and years ago... I was never a bad person, I was rather shy and always scared..very afraid of everything you can think about and always ready to attack.....No not in a physical way but I had to protect myself, this made me so scared, those feelings, that I turned the other way and didn't do a thing to protect myself......I learned and learned and learned and still am learning....And the thing I am learning now, ( and for a coplle of years already) is that live isn't about fighting and always be in a battle to survive..live can be easy and gentle too....
Another thing I learned is that the purpose of live is indeed to learn... If there weren't any livelessons,how would we learn???
And are there ever lessons that are really nice????
I don't think so..How hard we try to give our children a nice live... ?We will never succeed for no nice thing will ever teach them the things they need to learn. That means automatically that every human being..small, big, mail, femail has difficult times in live they have to deal with...
The only thing is that as parents we can teach them as good as possible what live is about. Prepair them for difficult times and give them the tools they need to overcome them.
That means teach them to manage their anger, sadness,frustration.teach them about lives difficulties and show them how to deal with them. teach them 'problemsolving' as a normal skill. teach them how to manage money so they don't end up in depths they can't pay for in years to come... teach them selfesteem so they will stand up for themselves and have a little trust in who they really are, even when the crowd is thinking in a different way.

This is all we can do.... and nothing more..And then it is for us to let go and trust the things we teach them will help them through live....
Like a baby they have to learn to walk on there own two feet and as they grow up that is even harder to do then when they were todlers.....
But it is necessary and it is, like Sapphira explained so wonderfully already, a two way street.. She had to learn to let go of her parents and her parents have to learn to let her go...
Thinking back about the letting go of my oldest child..the psychopath son, ....mannnnnn this was hard.... But; I don't know anything about your religion, but I believe nothing happends just like that..everything has it's purpose..so also his live..and the way he is living it..( pppfff)
I think, for me, it has a lot to do with respect.... No not respect for him as my son, for there is nothing to respect in that part... But respect for the life that is given to him to do whatever he wants with it..it is all up to him, it is his choice to make and I can't do anything about it...... I think the path someone goes is holy, and I have to believe so is his!!!
That doesn't mean at all I trust in him...or in the way he is handling things...it is a bigger thing than live itself..And again I can't express myself in English like I want and need to. I think you know what I mean and if not I trust you will let me know when you want to know what I do mean..I will try to explain it then in another way....
So I think see from that point of view the things you are going through with your daughteer are (ppfff)'normal'... it is a lives lesson in lettinggo and trust in her abillities as a human being....

Another thing I want to share is that my observation in my live and that of others is that there is nothing in live that is too big. I mean that a weaker person will never get big lessons and a strong person never gets easy lessons. So the lessons a person gets are exactly enough to handle in the way they are able to....
...
mmm, I explained this better in another posting ..I will see if I can find it and tell you were it is oke...
For now..I hope tomorrow will brign a very good day also and sleep well.
Love Segaya