Hi Forum -

I skimmed through parts of the on-line book "The Mask of Sanity" by Hervey Cleckley. [See http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.pdf ]. It has many stories describing the lives of what I guess are different kinds of psychopaths. Very educational. Though I was only exposed to the psychopath involved with my daughter for around ten days, I can see many instances of his behavior amongst these stories. There is one issue that I have trouble understanding, however. From what I have read elsewhere, (and our psychiatrist told us) psychopaths have trouble maintaining long-term relationships. In the book, many of the stories involved psychopaths who were married, at least for a while. People on this site have spoken of a parent who was a psychopath. How do individuals end up marrying psychopaths ? Are many of them so subtle that the 'normal' spouse doesn't see what he/she is getting into ?

Thanks

ace

Hi Ace,
I think that has to do with a lot of things... Not only with the behavior of the psychopath but also with the view people have from themselves.
You can see this in the relationship your daughter has with this man..I think in generally speaking this is exactly what will happen. Somehow psychopaths know exactly who to turn to. They will never hook up with someone who is strong and full of a good selfesteem. They prey always the once who have uncertain issues in their lives.
The majority of people are like that, so many are vulnarable to those psychopaths. Even having one or two vulnarabillities , they will catch on to it and abuse it.
We learn from our parents and envoirment that everybody makes mistakes and we have to forgive and forget. Few people will see through that behavior and deside somethings are not to forgive and certainly not to forget!!!
Another thing is selfreflexion or whatever it is called in English... People want to forgive others because they know they do wrong themselves also and want to be forgiven also...
Thebehavior of psychopaths will show things normal people will never thing about.. Think forinstance about the snake this man gave as a present to your daughter....The explanation people will give for themselves to those kind of events will be with in the reach of a normal functioning brain.They will never suspect somebody to be a psychopath!.
Although there are women psychopaths the larger group is men. So they will prey on women. Women learn from very early on that they have to adjust to men and have to be caring, loving, and the whole long list we all know about. So that makes them easy targets probably.
Ofcourse the abillity of psychopaths to ly , cheat, manipulate and charme their way out of everthing is not of small help in this.
Further on; There is not much knowledge about psychopathy. If people know about it, then only from a distance... that is...what they know.. There are a lot of psyhopaths out there and once you know how to recognize them it is easy enough....but what if you don't know...?
This man you are talking about is around 30 I think? It wouldn't surprise me at all if you are the first one to take his mask of..Maybe, but just maybe, there will be one more..But people just don't see. have other explanations for their behavior.
My son forinstance still makes people believe that the reason he is in prison now is still because of his bad youth... I didn't go and steal but still it is because of me..( he lives on his own now for almost 10 years!!!
All psychopaths will use excuses like that and will never take any responsibillity for their actions. Sometimes after doing something bad they will fall on their knees bagging for forgiveness and when turning around they just start al over again!
he checklist is not known by a lot of people. Parents of psychopath children go out of their way to findout what is wrong with hte child and only afte so many years of rechearch will find the way toknowledge about this disorder. Still readin the checklist it is hard exept this is what si wrong with their child....
When having a relationship people will never go to that ength to dicscover what is wrong.
As long as there is no knowledge about psychopathy, the psychopaths among us can do whatever they want and will find nobody in their way to stop them....

No doubt there can be said so much more about this item but I leaf that to others and have to goand work a bit now...
Hope this will help a bit.
Love Segaya

Hello Ace

Psychopaths have many short term relationships for a variety of reasons. They are parasitic by nature and if the 'host' stops providing then they move on to the next victim they can bleed. I'm sure that is why Segaya was saying the best thing would be for your daughter to move into her own apartment because the man would see she doesn't have free access to your goods, money and lifestyle. They often use the status of others as part of their act, like he did telling you where his parents lived and the family business.

I spoke to someone who was married to a psychopath for many years and she said her ex 'bought' her co-operation in his dominance and she learned to keep her head down and keep the peace for the sake of the children.

To begin with these people can be incredibly charming and it takes a long time to discover the real person behind the facade, while they are getting what they want they keep up the pretence. Somtimes partners stay because the psychopath has threatened them with harm or keeping the children if they leave, is the partner has nowhere to go because the psychopath has isolated them from family of friends then they are scared to go. Many are brainwashed and believe they are to blame for all the problems and spend years trying to put things right.

If you get some time you will read the many stories on the forum that will tell you why people stay with an abusive partner for so long. The problems are usually the same but it how the victim is able to deal with it that makes the difference. You took days to realise what this man is and have no reason to keep him in your life but imagine a person that falls in love with the character the psycopath is playing, maybe has children then the truth appears. I would think denial and self searching are the first things the victim does...as for the practicalities of moving away from the person with children and no money.

I hope your daughter is discarded soon because she lacks funds or access to what the man wants from her.

Going back to earlier posts I would guess that he is telling her she is not thin enough, playing on her fragile ego and that he is the onlyone who cares about her until she only sees things from his perspective...trying to brainwash her.
What do parents do when their children are taken in by a cult? I have no knowledge of how parents would go about undoing the brainwashing...that is they can get anywhere near them.

I'm waiting to hear some positive news from you soon.

Regards and my best wishes to Mrs Ace
Jan

As I am writing this, my daughter has gone out to sign a contract with the landlord for an apartment in the city. I guess based on what has been written in past posts we should be cautiously optimistic about it. I am trying to be careful about what I say on this to her. On the one hand it make sense for her to strike out independently and perhaps get rid of the psychopath and maybe feel better in order to improve her eating habits - so I wished her good luck with it all. On the other hand we dont want her to feel she's being pushed out of the house - its a home in which she should always feel part of, and if circumstances cause it again she needs to know she can come back, so we're not making too much noise about it.

Today had another unusual scenario that I invite you to comment on. I got to work and my daughter called around 8:30AM, asking if she could come by and pick up the car to take to work today. I asked why and she said its been a hassle to go every day by bus to work and she wanted one day to go in with the car for a change of pace. She had to take a bus to get to my office (about 20 minutes away) and from there would drive in to her work. She said she'd return in the evening to pick me up again. I did a quick mental calculation and figured that she didnt have much time in between work to do any mischief with the psychopath, and, figured this was a gesture I could do that might generate some positive sentiments with her. Still I noted the mileage on the odometer so I could later verify that she in fact went to work. When she picked me up in the evening, I immediately noticed 160 kilometers elapsed on the odometer, instead of the expected 50 kilometers round-trip to her office and back.I didnt say anything initially, because we had an opportunity to spend 20 minutes together and I wanted to see if we could start speaking more comfortably again. We in fact had a relaxed and pleasant talk. She told me about the apartment, her job, which she continues to like and is proud of, etc. When we got home, I confronted her with the facts on the odometer, and asked her why she lied to me. She said she felt coerced to lie (she rarely lied in the past) because she said she needed the car for personal reasons and not for work. If she asked for personal reasons, being the way things are, she said I would have refused. She took a day off from work and attended to the personal reasons. I said, yes, being the way things are, requesting the car for an unexplained personal reason would not have been accepted. Being that we were speaking about something that already occurred, I asked what was the personal issue ? She refused to tell me. Anyway, I didnt make too big a noise about it - but made sure she understood that I felt uncomfortable with what she did. I called my wife, told her the story, and without hesitating, said that probably the psychopath made her take him somewhere. Anyone want to comment on this ?

Jan, you mentioned, as have Segaya and others previously, that psychopaths try to get access to resources, money, lifestyle,etc either from the person they are preying on or his/her family. Reasons have been given as to why someone may stay with a psychopath. OK, I understand that now. But is it reasonable to expect that there are situations out there where the psychopath indeed gets money, resources, respect, etc from the family of the person the psychopath is preying on ? I mean, in our case, after 10 days of knowing him, it quickly evolved into a situation where we refuse to speak to him, and ended up detesting him - and of course he'll see no money. I wouldnt give him a glass of water. Are we more the exception or more the rule in these cases ? Its hard to see how psychopaths can con and manipulate into getting things out of a whole family, but maybe I'm wrong.

Best regards to all

Ace

Hello Ace

This seems to be a step on the right direction and you are right to be optimistically cautious. Firstly, if things go wrong your daughter will NEED you, she will have to ask to come home but knows the door is always open to her. You have the upper hand here, not that it's about scoring points...it's all about getting your 'real' daughter back.

The lying about the car and 'blaming' you for making her lie is all about denial-just like alcoholics. In some ways a positive sign that she knows what she is doing is not right. A double edged sword allowing her the car but if it opened up a topic for debate then another positive thing. Has the man got a car...one you have seen? (Did you get the registration number to trace it?) Why would he need your daughter to drive him ...your wife is probably right...where was he going and why did he need to be seen in your car? Where was his? So many questions about that!

If you look at a radius on the map of her journey can you guess where she has been?

You asked about seeing a psychopath for what he is, that is tricky one. For a start you are particularly alert, intelligent, wise and went with your gut instinct. This man was using your daughter to get to you and if just like my father was when I was young your antenna is sensitive. Psychopaths only seem to be able to deal with one person at a time and your daughter was the conduit to you which makes it more difficult for him.

I think people like you (and me) are the exception because we see through these people as though they were glass but to be fair to those who have fallen for the hype, charm, lies we are not the primary target so have the benefit of being one step removed. We have no interest in being part of their life. My partner's kid could charm the socks off anyone by the age of 9 but he made my flesh crawl...just instict to begin with but I'm pleased I listened to it.

Let's hope this is the start and end of a new era in this relationship.

Regards
Jan

Hi Ace,
I think I can give a good example of how this is done....( the money thing)
You know by now my oldest son is the psychopath.
He and his former girlfriend met in jail..
They wanted to have a baby straight away and for the time being live in their car... This all to force the government to give them a nice hous with several rooms.. ( to grow their
own weet....)
She did get pregant and came to me for help, in that time they lived in the same town I am...They thought I would gave them a room wiating for that nice house they want ....I convinced her not to have this baby!
You have to know that I am very much against abortion but they were around 17 and 18 years of age at that time. I am ill and not capabel of taking care of a baby and my son is continualy high on drugs.....they both didn't have a job and really lived in the car most of the time.
Anyway, not long after that she got pregnant again and they moved to her mothers town.... They got a house indeed but quit small. All the money my son made with working went to the drugs...The mother and stepfather of this girl were both working people. They refused to give any money but they did the weekly shoppings for food and all that is needed in a family. when the rent wasn't payed her parent took care of that also..it came to a point that my son made a big fight with me because I didn't do that. not even for my grandson!!!! Again he had proof that I am that bad, bad mother....( I am on welfare because of being too ill to work so I cant help out anyway...)'
My son said it is normal that the man of the family works and that because he is the one who works he is intitled to spend the money as he pleases..Paying bills and paying for foods is something he never understood is normal..He lives ..so he is intitled to it all..finish. that is not his responsebillity, it is the parents or the governments problem..and he expects those to take care of it all and not bother him with it in any way.
he gets his money sometimes from work and stealing and because he is the 'provider' he is the boss and the girlfriend had to do as she is told by him.
he really feels the parents have a livelong obligation towards him and the family he has on that moment.
The parents don't want their daughter and grandchild to starve so feel obligated to do the shopping and pay rent so at least they have a roof over their head....This is the way he playes the parents..And that is the way a lot of psychopaths do it...
He is on drugs, others will have probably an other excuse why there is no money 'for the time being'...forgetting to tell that this 'time being' is forever when not being carefull....
Now when you know this and remember the psychopath in your house made the remark that your house and properties are not yours.... do you understand that saying better now????
For this is not yours so it is commen.. so it is there for who ever needs it;..him forinstance..Oke, it is twisted thinking but I think you know what I mean?!!
That is the trick you know..think twisted and you can follow there next step for quit sometime..till they go really in the psychopath area and then we loose control....
the only thing left when that is happening is look for shelter... know where is save and lean against that...and beware for everything that can happen.

I was thinking about the story with your car today..... tricky!!!!
Thinking about what I would do in that kind of situation; I came to the conclusion i wouldn't give the car anymore...
Not because I don't trust her with driving..I do....But because the car is the item at the moment he is using to get something done that is not right. On top of it all, it is the thing that makes her having to ly to me... Because of him...so if she can't take it anymore and knows so, there is no need to ly about it anymore.....
So this could be the way to stop that kind of lying And on top of it all, you make clear to the psychopath that he can't mess with you, not even through using your daughter.
To the daughter there is the messages that she is oke..but the situation makes that the rules change....
You have to let go,she is intitled to make her own decisions and so she is to make the wrong ones , but that doesn't mean you have to follow that example blindly.

well that is my way of thinking ( because of my oldest son, my youngest son is great so I think and act differently with him)..Maybe it helps you to get to yours for these situations are so very different from the normal ones....
Take care and be strong...
Love Segaya

Hi Segaya -

Thank you for your last post. The description of your son & girfriend's behavior was quite educational and enlightening. It was rather scary as well. I would hate to see my daughter end up like that. My hope is that in contrast to your son's girlfriend, our psychopath didnt meet my daughter in jail. She's lived a pretty productive and positive life so far, comes from a stable family, so I hope she still has the tools to judge right from wrong. Still, he has been able to recruit her on his behalf to try to get things out of us. The latest incident was with the car. She will now be punished by not being able to use the car. Period. She will learn there is a consequence for trying to do these things. She turned down the few hundred dollars / month I offered her a few weeks ago (apparently not enough for the psychopath) and insulted her parents about it ? Fine. She will get no money. Period. No longer negotiable. She's upset I dont respect her boyfriend ? Correct. I didnt respect him, I dont respect him, and I will never respect him. Period. Non-negotiable, end of discussion.

She did sign the apartment contract last night, although I dont know when she will actually move yet. I wish her good luck but she will not get anything materially from us as long as she is with him and behaving the way she is. Making a secretary's salary, after paying rent, expenses, etc., I know she will not have much extra money to give him (which is very good). I am confident she can live on her own - in her army days not so long ago, she actually lived under much more adverse conditions (lived in tents for a few months, led soldiers on all-night treks in the desert, etc) and it did a lot of good for her character.

Now it is much clearer to me why the psychiatrist was very blunt about the situation: have nothing to do with the psychopath, resrict car usage where possible to prevent her from seeing him, he's a monster, etc. Use 'tough-love' on your daughter. He said she will thank you in the future for it. I dont remember if I mentioned it previously, but he also warned us to beware of what psychologists tell us. He said they may advise 'trying to understand her', 'compromising with her' etc. Now I understand that anything that indirectly makes the psychopath feel good is bad news.

This psychopath can say whatever he wants and pump in whatever logic he wants into her head, but at the end of the day she will see that life doesnt translate to anything good with him - and we will not give any cushion to make it any easier. Not for her and not for him.

On a lighter note, we've come up with a name for my wife. We'll call her "Alice". Alice sends regards to everyone.

Thanks

Ace & Alice

Hi Ace and Alice...
There is a smile on my face right now!!!!
You get it!!!!
Congratulations are in place...no I am not making fun of you by saying that..honest!!!!
It has to be so hard to understand a bit of what is psychopathy about, that I find it amazing that you seem to understand so quickly!!!!
It means you really, really , studied this disorder and carefully read our postings indeed.
That means now that there is a future for you and your daughter...
Indeed many people who don't know this disorder, or don't know it well enough, will make the mistake of wanting to 'understand' the psychopath or the ones involved with them....When knowing the greater view it is not hard to understand there is no understanding at all.. There is knowing yourself, who you are, what you want and don't want and set the rules....!!!!!
I met a sociologist once that worked in a long stay facility for the government. he was there working with psychopaths and like to think of himself as the proffesional.... Yeah,well.. What he said is; 'we don't make the diagose of psychopathy because we don't want to take hope away from these people''...!!! PPpff the **** didn't even understand psychopaths don't have hope!!! They don't even know what hope is....And those proffesionals want us to take them seriously?!

Like it or not; you are well on your way to be the expert on this subject very soon.You understand much more then most people will after years of studying. You and your wife did this in a matter of days!! Incredible... Ohh if you only would know how proud this makes me feel!
Proud because now you are able to help your daughter in the near future, proud because he can't get any grip on you any more whatsoever!! Proud because you will be able to spot a psychopath from a distance now.. and who knows in the future will be able to help others to survive them....

The problems are not over yet, but when holding on to the attitude you got now the changes you will survive it is much more.... With the people around you who do understand this disorder and hopefully this forum, together we will make it possible to overcome this time in you live and afterwards look back with a smile on your face for knowing you all came out well....


It will be hard though to keep your own rules... For you know it don't you.. as a parent you punish a child and get punished as hard as... If a child is grounded, the parent is also, for he/she has to see that the child stays in... So with this it is the same...
Did you read the last posting of Damaskrose... She writes about some sayings ( expressions?) that are so very true!!!
I hope you and Alice will keep up the good work and you know it, don't you;.. when needed we all are just one posting away!!!
Love Segaya

It's a while since I posted though I have been keeping up with how all are. I really was -am - worn out and feeling miserable, with another left field assault from the ex and also reading some studies that brought home to me how abnormal a lot of the past was and how subtle yet I kept on going (know I shouldn't blame myself but sort of do). This time, he agreed to take his two teen children to NY then decided to take the smart son rather thn the sensitive daughter. It also meant I didn't know if I could try for a break myself as I have had no private time to reach some calm and perspective.

The effects were to divide and conquer us - the favourite son began to explain his father's reasons, becoming angry at me, the daughter felt left out and disrespected, so my little family was being attacked and I was furious but powerless.

The best study to date I read is by Marie Therese Hirigoyen Stalking the Soul (through amazon, pub c. 1997) , which repeated conversations I could have had myself - the destabilising, the creation of doubt and the confusion.I also read that gaslighting US book, which was OK but prettified. And am into Wolves in Sheeps clothing, which is milder but humane.

How to move on? I wake some mornings wishing I didn't wake up and feeling life is over and I made a mess of my choices, although I know rationally this is reactive and will pass. But it takes so long and absorbs so much energy. I am also trying not to recall events from the past which take on a new resonance now I know better. Fighting with me when I was in labour - ouch!

I'm managing my work but not going out personally and smoking much more than I did. I am also very angry - he is apparently going from strength to stregth so I am probably a little jealous too. It scares me he is so callous, and that people like me try more and more in the belief that if we do enough, please enough, appease enough, fix enough it will work out. I am disgusted atmyself for the past and don't know how to move on. I'm furious he is messing with the children too especially as he wouldn't agree a parenting plan so he does what he wishes when it suits. And I'm disgusted he is such a respected admired person publicly - I wish pople knew and I know too I am at risk of being provoked.

How to keep going?

Hi Eva,
Long time no see, but glad you are back....
it doesn't sound good, does it!!!
But keep going on..everthing passes and this will also.. But it takes time, time to sort it all out,time to make everything smooth again and time to recover...And taken this all takes place at the same time, the recovery always seems to come last..
But always remember; Everything you are doing now is for the good. it will take time to find it's place but in the futurebyou will benefit a great deal of all the work you are doing now.
Like i say a lot,..you plant the seed now... But it will take time to let it grow..But once it is grown then you can take the fruits of all your hard work..So stay strong and when needed you can get the support you need from us.
glad to hear some from you again!!
greetings Segaya