HI Relly
I wrote before sidelining to cut and paste the stuff below, then lost my post. Basically, I'd said my hunch was this involved land, that your friend was perhaps too paralysed to do anything (such as get new job in new place, with your help and a relevant therapist) - understandable if she feels her mother is really out to kill her - and that you might know this family a long time and therefore be best placed to assess the mother and figure out how to undercut her campaign, although it could compromise your ethics and might provoke worse behaviour. On the other hand, you may need a dossier for police.

You've mentioned various governmental and legal authorities so here's the paste below, assuming it can be adapted for more everday situations. I can't cite the online source because I didn't take it.

I notice you posted previously about emotional vampires and trusting your body instincts so wonder how they flash with different people in this scenario. (PS Any contact between this friend and her birth father? Could be an ally - though there'll be no change unless she changes something too)

PASTE


The Narcissist In Court

A clear distinction has to be made between the FACTUAL pillar and the PSYCHOLOGICAL pillar of any cross-examination or deposition of a Narcissist.

It is essential to be equipped with absolutely unequivocal, first rate, thoroughly authenticated and vouched for information. The reason is that narcissists are superhuman in their capacity to distort reality by offering highly "plausible" alternative scenarios which fit all the facts.

It is very easy to break a narcissist - even a well trained and prepared one.

Here are a few of the things the narcissist finds irresistible:

Any statement or fact which seems to contradict his or her inflated perception of his grandiose self.

Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasizes that he or she possesses, any hint that he or she is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party.

Any positioning of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others.

Any intimation that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, or a victim.

The narcissist is likely to react with rage to all these and, in an effort to re-establish his fantastic grandiosity, he is likely to expose facts and stratagems he or she had no conscious intention of exposing.

The narcissist will also react with narcissistic rage, hatred, aggression, or violence to an infringement of what he perceives to be his or her entitlement.

Narcissists believe that they are so unique and that their lives are so cosmically significant that others should defer to their needs and cater to their every whim without question. The narcissist feels entitled to special treatment by unique individuals, over and above the regular "bloke".

ANY insinuation, hint, intimation, or direct declaration that the narcissist is not special at all, that he is average, common, not even sufficiently idiosyncratic to warrant a fleeting interest will inflame the narcissist.


ADD to this a negation of the narcissist's sense of entitlement - and the combustion is inevitable.

Tell the narcissist:

that he or she does not deserve the best treatment,
that his or her needs are not everyone elses priority,
that he or she is boring,
that his or her needs can be catered to by an average practitioner (medical doctor, accountant, lawyer, psychiatrist),
that he or she and his motives are transparent and can be easily gauged,
that he or she will do what he is told,
that his or her temper tantrums will not be tolerated,
that no special concessions will be made to accommodate his or her inflated sense of self, etc.
When approached in this manner, this will cause the narcissist to lose control the majority of the time.

Remember, the narcissist believes that he or she is the cleverest, far above the madding crowd. If contradicted, exposed, humiliated, berated ("you are not as intelligent as you think you are", "who is -really- behind all this? It takes sophistication which you don't seem to have", "so, you have no formal education", "you are (mistake his age, make him much older)... sorry, you are ...old" "what did you do in your life? did you study? do you have a degree? did you ever establish or run a business?" "would your children share your view that you are a good father?" "you were last seen with a Mrs. ... who is (suppressed grin) a DOMESTIC (in demeaning disbelief))", a narcissist will stand the chance of losing it.

I know that many of these questions cannot be asked outright in a court of law. But you CAN hurl these sentences at him during the breaks, inadvertently during the examination or during the deposition phase, etc.

Thanks Eva - that is exactly what I was looking for - information of this kind - how wonderful someone finally got what I was trying to say !!!!
Took a long time to get there but better late than never - I will print this out & hand it to the lawyer today as we have to go to Court today - what perfect timing - Thank you sooo much.... I was getting really, really frustrated with this site - until now....
We have got the 'father' & his wife & the nan & pop coming to court too, so Mom will not have much except the police that she has conned so far - hopefully we will be able to expose her & they will finally see her for what she really is - fingers crossed....

I felt sooo judged & having my motives & agenda questioned here, it wasn't funny - I became sooo defensive again, I couldn't believe it when I reread some of the stuff I responded with - I explained & gave more detail than necessary, and felt really let down by those that my 'expectations' believed offered much more than I received - maybe that's my fault - possible magical thinking on my part?.... Or maybe experience has shown those in this site to be very cautious, wary of people initially & question what they're really about before telling them anything - I don't know - I'm not a mind reader - I just wish I was - hahaha

If you can link evryone to that site where you got that info from I think that would be a great start - educate & train them up as to the Psychopath's weaknesses - get them to get support & network, get smart & they may stand a chance if they cannot just walk away - some people just don't have that luxury... better to try & fail than not try at all - same in love dear - you're not a failure if you've done your best - but you are if you don't even try....
Thanks again Relly

I couldn't have been more honest if I'd tried - and I wasn't aware there were no professionals involved in the forum - sorry, my mistake...
You got it right, sisterhood - you don't walk away from your sisters when times get tough - you support, protect & be there for them until things improve & then you get on with it...
In the meantime, you research & learn all you can to better deal with a situation - I thought that was 'normal' - obviously others have a different outlook - maybe it's because I'm not a 'victim' I don't share that same outlook? I don't know - but what I do know is I am strong enough to stand beside my friends and 'be there' when they need me to be, support where I can, & walk away when & if I (or they) need/want me to. Sorry, I apologise if I came accross as abusive, I was frustrated by the line of questioning & the doubts hurt - I do not like my integrity being questioned, at times in my life that's all I had - was my honour & integrity and I do get a bit defensive - I was only trying to get my point across - which seemed to make matters worse each time - anyways thanks for your time & attention to this matter - I have something to go on now from Eva & have googled that & come up with some very interesting stuff which is most helpful. Good luck in the future to all of your members dealing with these awful kinds of people... God bless..

Thanks Jan - I think I finally got what I was looking for from Eva - & yes I was getting really frustrated & angry - we had a court hearing coming up & I was looking for information on how to expose & deal with this woman's scheme's & manipulations... Which I asked for but wasn't getting - instead I was being questioned on my motives & the doubts about me hurt & **** me off... I'm only human.... Sorry about that - but I think your members are a bit too quick to judge others & I felt very misjudged & reacted instead of acting... Ahh the foibles of being human eh?.... Once again, Thank you & maybe you can learn something from me here - a caring, concerned, loyal friend who is genuine - something many may not have had in their own situation, which is maybe why they seemed to question my motives & doubt me so much....????? I think they need to question themselves & look within as well after this...

Hello Relly

I'm pleased you have got what you were looking for and I do apologise if I missed your post asking for information to take to court. I mentioned previously that I had some problems with viewing some posts. The reason I was asking questions was to get a clear idea of what you wanted as it wasn't obvious to me. Thank goodness Eva was on the ball.

I would like to say that the members here have vast amounts of experience of being victims of psychopaths but none are qualified to make diagnoses, all we can do is share the things we have learned and researched. If you go to the resources section on the forum you will find all the factual information members have contributed over the years. Some members will have similar experiences to others so will be the right people to discuss your particular problem with. From a legal perspective advice and information is different in each country.

I could see your frustration and to be very honest with you I too was getting frustrated because I didn't understand what you were looking for and it perpetuated the circle of doubt.
Maybe you said in one of your posts (that I missed) you were going to court and the reason and I could have directed you to relevant information. I could also see your emotions were running high and that's not a good way to deal with pyschopaths, if they see that they have the upper hand. It is similar to the no contact advice... to show no emotion is the only way to be if you have to have contact. Would you mind refreshing me on what the court case is about?

As you have found out for yourself, psychopaths can manipulate any situation, including other people's perceptions of them so don't be surprised if this woman does this in court. She will have lawyer working for her and that person is her first victim in the court situation. Each person she deals with will have a different view of her, she will work each one for what she can gain. I think you should be prepared to be disappointed that this woman will be exposed. I don't know how much experience you have of courts, over the last 6 years I have had a lot with UK courts and have been extremely diappointed many times. Soemtimes it is shocking what people get away with in court.

I also have to be quite blunt and I hope you don't feel offended but I have to say all the members of this forum do care otherwise they would not spend their time trying to support people in distress. This forum is run entirely voluntarily and many hours are spent researching and posting for the benefit of the readers.
I usually agree that all of us can question ourselves but in this instance I don't think it was entirely necessary as you must have noticed that the replies you received were all very similar and that we were asking what you wanted from us. You were not ignored and we were trying to work with you but had little to go on although there was lots about the emotional aspect rather than hard facts.

I hope like any good friend we can put our differences behind us and take the friendship to another level. With good friends you can be totally honest and at times very personal, maybe even harsh but only for their own good. From now on we should talk honestly and openely with each other to avoid any further misunderstanding. I do hope we can now be more supportive and wish you well with the court case. It would be good to know if you get the result you are hoping for.

Best wishes and please let us know how you and your friend get on.

Regards
Jan

With respect Relly, your comments on the people here who have sought to understand read in a patronising way. While repeated questions and demands signal distress, they can also signal narcissistic and aggressive behaviour, which everyone here must guard against. It is wise and reasonable to explore before forming opinions, which is what your respondents tried to do. This does not indicate a victim mentality. They gave you, a stranger, their precious time.

to all...


there is a song that we sing in church called " Much more than a conquerer ":)
When I was set free from abuse, i shed my "victim" mentality. Theres nothing I have to defend anymore because there isnt anything to hide! ttl...

With respect to everyone concerned, I apologise for my frustration & impatience. I wasn't aware of other information available, that's why I was asking, I didn't check out the site properly, I'm not that good on computers, a bit of a dinosaur really (tech challenged hehe)
We lost in court against her - Mom assaulted her daughter & her own mother & had her daughter arrested for it.... As I said, Mom is the best actress I have ever seen & deserves an Academy Award for her performance - the case went against us inspite of evidence to the contrary - I couldn't believe it - you were sooo right - I really thought the evidence would prove what she really is & expose her - this is why I was sooo anxious, worried, emotional & frustrated - I knew how good / evil she was - I just was unable to articulate that properly for others to understand - again, my mistake. I am going to help grandma & grandpa find a new house & move though, so that's something, we discussed that yesterday. I really feel sorry for them as their whole family is torn apart & they are sooo old & vulnerable. Grandma was itting in the courtroom & was getting upset at all her daughter's (mom's) lies & was about to walk out as she found it too upsetting to listen to her - I asked to her to stay & listen so she would really see what her own daughter was so she knew in her heart that she hadn't made any errors in her own judgement regarding moving away or their will. She now knows the truth & it is breaking her heart & I had to explain it was nothing she did wrong as she feels sooo guilty about how she turned out & doesn't really understand how her own daughter could turn out that way after the way they raised her - poor love... It was sooo sad to watch. I love these people dearly & it tears me apart watching the damage Mom does to them, poor old dears. They are such kind, soft, gentle vulnerable people who need protection from her.

Hello Relly

I am so sorry that things went badly for your friend, her grandparents and you. I'm not at all surprised after years of being subjected to a psychopath's lies. They get so good at it we begin to doubt ourselves when we know the truth.
The law is a 'law unto itself' and pure theatre....the best performance wins! I don't know how the law works in your country but in the UK it seems if you swear on oath then everything you say from then on is the truth and that's all that is used, it is then up to the other side to defend themselves rather than have the opportunity to give the true version of events. Courts are intimidating places and the legals deliberately try to unbalance you but you tried and that's all you can do.

I do wish I'd been able to find out earlier what you would be facing although I probably wouldn't have been able to give you much help to fight this. The only thing you can do once the anger at being misunderestood subsides it to use that emotion to find a new determination move on. The grandparents may now be more vigilant about letting their daughter finding out about where they intend to move to. Over here we have some wonderful sheltered housing for elderly where they can live independently but have others around.

Those poor people having to go through all this and then to feel they should take the blame for their daughter. That is another issue..it's a bit late in their lives to get to grips with knowing about psychopaths let alone understanding them.

What about your friend, did she receive a punishment?

How about you and your friend signing up to a computer course and have some fun together and try to put some distance between the two of you and this horrible situation? That could be another negative that could be turned into a positive.

Regards
Jan

Hello Godsgrace

It great to see someone who has survived an experience like you had and be so postive. You are tonic!

I think you will be able to help a lot of members who have daughters they are desperately trying to help but don't know how. You have the perspective that we don't and you will be able to tell us what you found acceptable advice and what you would not accept.

Thanks for your input, it's a breathe of fresh air.

Regards
Jan