Hi Jan and Damskrose and all,

Well I am not from Belgium but the first real serious hint for what is wrong with my kid came indeed from this bottumless pitt syndrom. I mentioned that name shortly after becoming a member of the forum.
Once I was a contactwoman for the organisation for parents of these children so know quit a bit about it.

As some people do know here, I resent greatly the whole RAD consept.It is different from what we mean and understand it to be when biological children are involved..
RAD...The R in it means....RE -active.
Now of course we know all about the little children who are abandoned by the mother ( and rest of the family), We all heared also about children who are abused, not looked after, didn't get food etc etc etc. Most of those chidlren came from a third world country and the people who are the parents of those children often don't know what to do and how to handle the sitiuation.
A study showed long ago, that children who aren't toucht can even die. This study was done in the 1920..... so the knowledge is there for a long time already.

I think that every person can understand that some ( I mean; not all) adoptive children will have difficulties to bound.

What the bottumless pitt syndrom is about is biological children, well loved and cared for, looked after in a proper way and still have the signs we are talking about.
Where is the R in this situation?? Re- active in what??????

I met a lot of parents during the time I was a contactwoman for the organisation. Most of them had more then one child, some of them had 4, 5 or 6 children. From a family one was having the BPS....Why I wonder...Would it be that the parents disliked this one child. Treat it different from the others? Cook diner for the family and not give it to that one child... Not loving the one child who had in time 'developed' this syndrom..Wouldn't that be having it's toll on the other children, wouldn't they have shown some behavior that wasn't 'normal' because of it????....

I agree again. The term RAD is maybe suitable for a lot of the things that happen in the lives of the children...But what about the rest of them..What if the RAD doesn't quit fitt the child...What about the biological parents who are traped in this RAD...Parents, as we said earlier; who first look at what they did wrong.. Who feel guilty already for having such a child... DO we realy want them to feel even worse, have even less a support group? No I don't think so... The easy way out is indeed to call it all RAD, but it can't be satisfying for a real intrested psychiatrist to just ignore the other possibillity.

With children of the BPS were tests done. Brainscan were made and indeed there are differences in the brain compared to 'normal' children.
This means it is inharented and not because of nurture is it? When looking at the youth of my son..Yeah things have happend..But was it a reason to develope this syndrom or psychopathy? What about my other son, he is raised the same way and doesn't show any sign of it what so ever!!!
I met several women on this forum and we wrote a lot so many people here will have noticed; Lady Crown had a terrible youth... She is a very caring. loving. sensible woman.
There is Sapphira, did you read how she uses words.... wonderfull and again caring, loving, sensible and there is me... All were reased by psychopathic parents.......... When it is nurture, why are we who we are, Not psychopaths, Not consciousless not harse people who don't care.....
We all try to do what ever we can to make others happy, to be thoughtful of our actions and are careful with people even who are acting horrible towards us...
So.... I do think some of the parents are helped by the information that came with the RAD...But it doesn't fitt all and please...let us not put this title on every situation that could fitt the discribtion...

I am convinced even that not all adoptive children with the RAD are re-active!
Some of them will be and some of them won't ..it is as simple as it is.... But as long as professionals will not take it serious we will have to do with what is offered...And we will have nothing else offered to us as long as we take this in like thirsty ( cars) fish....
regards Segaya

Hello Segaya

I couldn't agree more. What have some biological children diagnosed as RAD, brought up with loving, caring parents got to 'react' about? React against loving? caring? food, warmth, cuddling and attention?

I think the question is why don't they attach? Is it because they are born with no capacity for empathy and reject the mother/mother figure? My partner's ex had another child with her new husband and in poor circumstances and he is a happy, attached child although he does show signs of FAS.

With hindsight I was wrong thinking she was an abusive mother, she was neglegtful of his education but gave him everything a child would want and he was with her constantly even when he should have been at school. I do think a child would not find an upbringing like his abusive even if we would. Which child would be unhappy about going everywhere with his mother, eating and drinking whatever he wanted, could stay up as late as he liked, watch anything he wanted on TV, not go to school.....etc, etc.

I think this is one of the big issues that needs to be addressed and no-one seems able to speak up about it. I wonder if any professional would be able to voice their opinion without their peers challenging them? It's like a closed shop.

Do you know when the BPS was first researched? It is very difficult to find information about it so any links you have- could you post on the forum?

Regards
Jan

hello segaya/jan yes of course we give them the feelings we think they have and this is why we hold on for so long giving chances and hoping for some change. Thank you for reminding me. I am a bit stressed as I believe there is a lot of manipulation going on with my middle son D at the present. The ice queen as I should call her has convinced him that he needs to distance himself from the rest of the family. Side with her and although it is his decision I worry for him as he is getting sucked in alongside the rest of her cronies. He doesn't lie to me outright but he is avoiding direct answers and communication. I also had to go back to area where she lives and whilst there ran into two different people who berated me for abandoning my daughter and hinted at the terrible things she has been saying. When asked to outright put these things down in black and white they all back off. It is so strange. My theory is that she says to them oh dont tell my mother she will be so angry at me and I am so frightened. They cannot stop themselves saying something though and hence they usually approach me and insinuate things. It is so infuriating though!!!! I wish they would come out and say what is going on!
There was a song that used to go... 'you are as cold as ice'. I thought of it all the time in relation to my child. But she is soooo good at acting that you are right segaya in close proximity it is near impossible to see through her act. Many kind and caring people have been completely hoodwinked. I don't blame them as having to accept the truth about these children is terrible. It goes against the grain. Bottomless pit is absolutely they way I would describe this child. This is why they must be taken seriously. There are naughty children and then there are disturbed children to take it to a basic level. If we confuse the naughty with the disturbed we fail to see what is happening. We let them off the hook. The best thing you could do is get the child at a young age and having all the info we have now tackle each aspect of the condtion as it presents. But too often we push the gut feeling to one side. Our child is after all pretty and intelligent and attentive. They cannot be disturbed. But that is not a failing as I see it it is our humanity. we can get angry and cry and forgive and move on and learn about ourselves and others. These RAD children never can. I used to drive my oldest son crazy asking did I treat any of you different. He bears no grudges and cannot see why I am so upset about the whole thing. He feels his sister was a part of his life and if she was being false then whatever. That is her stuff and he has helped me let go of a lot.
So these children seem to have no self overview and must lack some basic self confidence or awareness that they can exist without the dramatic gameplaying. Each one is unique. My d uses social befriending and 'stroking'. I observe this more often now in others too, they overpraise you and make you feel good. Not just like a normal friend would but on a more personal level. You may feel a slight apprehensiveness when the praise is off key perhaps but it plays to our conceit I guess. But theirs is a friendship with a mission. To get access to your life and hence be able to mess with your head. So there you are thinking oh this person really likes me and trusts me and looks up to me you bond with them!! but they are faking their bond with you! In truth as every parent I take some responsibility for the issues dd has but we are also responsible for her education and keeping her safe for eleven years. Trouble is there was no one to keep us safe! Love damaskrose x

Hello Damaskrose

I do understand your concern for your middle son. I don't know what age he is but many teenagers start to question their lives and it maybe as simple as that. It sounds as though he still has contact with your daughter and if that is the case she probably is feeding his need to consider his life and sucking him in and 'stroking' him as you say. Your children sound very introspective which is great so he may be very sensitive to suggestion but no doubt he will work things out for himself. I think 'stroking' is a perfect description (I have witnessed it from my partner's kid) and when he sees he has been stroked he will know what to do. If you are still there being non-judgemental he will be able to share his experience with you.

Does this son have a good relationship with his older brother? He might be able to keep an eye on him without him feeling he is being monitored. There are not many teenage boys who would appreciate their mothers knowing about their inner feelings and the things they do but a brother is different. Your older son sounds very grounded and can rationalise the family dynamics for what they were but accepts it. He appears very mature and must be a great support for you.

My mother, who was a great mother, often tells me she wishes she had done things differently with her children and that she felt she was too hard on us but I look back on my childhood as a time of security and love. Yes, she demanded a lot of us and I really appreciate what she did for us, I know I would not be the person I am today without her. I think your son must feel the same and I keep telling my mother not to keep beating herself up about the past, she did what was right.
I think you are too hard on yourself saying that you were responsible for some of your daughter's issues, I believe she would have had these issues regardless of what you did and could even have been far worse without your constant care.

It must be very hard to hear the sort of negative feedback you are getting and it's far too easy to say 'ignore it'....you can't ignore it but give it time....the truth will out...as the saying goes. It must hurt to know people are talking about you and blaming you for something they know nothing about and it's this ignorance that needs addressing.

You say you wished these people would come out and say what they really mean...do you feel up to asking them outright? You are very articulate and I'm sure if you had some prepared answers for them you could put them right quite easily without getting angry or upset. The facts will speak for themselves so all you need to do is explain the facts. Of course there are always people whose minds are closed but that is there problem if they don't accept being educated.

Sometimes just posting on the forum helps to release the frustration you are feeling. We all need to do that at times.

Regards
Jan

Thanks jan i love my son so much he is twenty just last month and looks just like me of all the children funny how as they grow you still feel they are your babies! Oldest son is trying to talk to him he is not a boy who lies normally and my gut feeling is he is suffering but wont open up. In Regards to asking people outright i find it difficult talking About my ice girl outloud but Me and my son may present united front demand a few truths. Thankfully i have my other Happykids they are so easy to parent