Thank you Segaya, He called me last night for the first time since being locked up. He was very sad and humble sounding; telling me how much he misses all of us and he's going to be better when he gets out again. It's a broken record, keeps repeating. I do have a doctor appointment for him next Tuesday so we can get started on the scan referral. I'll have to check him out of detention for half the day. I'll keep plugging away and enjoy the peace of the moment. :0)

And how right you are!
isn't it awful to always be on guard. That is what mostly exhausted me. Even when they are not near you have to be watching. My son use to know I was looking for the good. Once a year ( approxematly) he gave away a nice day and it 'showed' me he was capable of doing well. This gave me hope again and the hope gave me wings so it seems...Yes,, well.. nothing happened for the good so I learned over time not to believe in those days.( him)
I am curious though...How is you enviorment reacting on this. I don't mean the so called professionals, but the neighbours, family, friend?( if there are any left) Do they believe you or do they blindly defend the child?
I learned over the years people always talk about keeping the hope. In my language is a saying; When there is no hope there is no life....
Well, I learned the hard way hope is not good for me..When i kept hoping, I expected things, and when expecting things the disapointment is always there. And I couldn't live with all these disappointments.
I am gald you made the appointment for the scan. At least it is another step you can make and maybe it can make it clearer....well we have to wait and see won't we.
I notice you say; 'He was very sad and humble sounding'...
Now my native language isn't english so maybe I get this wrong..But it seems to me the last part of your sentence is more correct then the first part?
Sounding humble means you see right through it.. but you also said he was very sad....Does this mean you really believe it or is it just a matter of speaking?
Maybe you think this is not important but language and the way we use it is. The way we use words makes clear what is in our minds, even when it is on a level we are not fully aware of.
I admire your strenght and keep my fingers crossed for the outcome of the scan....Let's hope once more!
Segaya

You can refuse to take him back, they have given you all the tools, you just have to know how to use them. In the report it blatantly states that he is a danger to your family and himself. Under those grounds, whoever puts him back in your home is responsible for anything that might happen to all of you, and or, to him.
Like I said, you have the tools, you even have better than I ever had, you have it in writing.
Children's servies CANNOT put other children in danger by placing the child back at home! You have alot to stand on legally, use it, and I am sorry to sound so rash, but do your best to forget that kid ever existed. Mine is 23 and I am still battling the SAME behaviors. I did have him removed from my home at 14 and he has never lived in my home since, under the grounds that he put my other children at risk.
The fact is that they will find room for him somewhere if you force them too.
And don't try and talk yourself into believing he can be fixed, don't let him play you with all his sob stories, and don't ever let your guard down.
I've been through it so many times that suicide threats are a non issue anymore. Oh they know how to play you

Hi HadEnuff,

It must have been a horrible experience for you. I don't have any statistics but I suspect suicide isn't in the deck of cards for Psychopath's only idle threats.

If it wouldn't impose on you too much could you tell us more about what you went through. Posts even read here reach many in the same situation and they can gain strength and relate to your words.

I am sure you probably heard a lot of "how could you" and asked yourself "why me". Your decision was a very wise one, there is nothing positive with having a Psychopath in the house.

Di

Yup, the 'how could you's' were terrible until my son managed to go through the rest of the family and burn hgis bridges. I tried hard to warn them and stop it from happening, but everyone believes "love" is the answer to all life's problems. They always believed he was acting out becuase he was treated unfairly at home. The evidence they used to back up thier idea was me...a tired, burned out and frustrated mom who had dragged her son all over the earth to try and get someone else to see there was a problem, and get it treated. (that, I think was THE most frustrating part of raising this kid. It hurt so badly to feel like all the doctors/neurologists/psychiatrists were judging your parenting skills when they had no idea what life was like at home with this kid)
He was constantly doing things to blame on the younger two, and he succeeded with most people who didn't have thier eyes open to his games. I wouldn't even send all the kids to thier grandparents at the same time because the oldest one had a game going on over there that totally shattered the younger ones. They were such good kids, and seen as so terrible over there. It got to a point that I would ONLY send the oldest one, whenever I could, to give the rest of us a much needed break.
Everyone said I ws too hard on him, or not consistant enough, or too soft...I got a different answer from every person I met...but none that made any sense.
The best was the day one of his school counsellors finally caught on and sent a book home in his back pack with him. She called me ahead and told me I had to read it. It ws entitled "Kids Who Kill" He was 8 years old at the time. But she had no help to give, and no advice to give. She simply said that he showed his true colors to her one day and she saw it loud and clear.
Yes, it is interesting, heartbreaking, dangerous, and very psychologically damaging to everyone in a household with a psychopath.
As for the "why me?"
It is very simple. I made the mistake of getting involved with a man who had the same traits, and I couldn't see them at the time. I fully believe that it is hereditary

You know, that has always been the question: Can he help himself? If it was something that he couldn't control, then there should be some compassion at least in the placement of him. Maybe a mental institution instead of jail. But it's those days that he does control himself that lets us know that he can. It is almost worse news that this is the case because now he must be held accountable. As far as my language, I do believe he may be sad (most of it I'm sure is acting). He is sad for himself, not for us. He will not ever accept that he has any responsibility for his behavior and their consequenses. His humility and promises are just a way to control us so he can be out of lock-down. He is good in detention and always gets to the highest level of freedom there. He can say the words that sound like he is sorrowful and self blaming, but ultimately he doesn't really believe them. I am totally aware of this. My problem is that I am a normal, loving, compassionate mother who made a commitment at his birth like all my other children. I have been trying for years to find help so I didn't have to just write him off. It breaks MY heart even though it doesn't his. I can't help that. But I have been begging for years for the courts to find another placement anyway, because my other children need to be safe and have peace in our home. It is their childhood too.

At first, when he was a little child, he didn't show his bad side until he was at home. And then it was just to me, not his father. It took a long time for my husband to open his eyes to how a child could be so vindictive and violent. The schools didn't even start seeing it until he was 10-11. This shows how well he was able to control where and when he acted out. Eventually the mental health community all got his number (he was always saying just the right things to his counsellors, so if he is so sweet and calm to them and agrees to their suggestions, then what am I talking about right?) The problem was that he could talk the talk, but he never put it into practice. Years of counselling has not changed him one bit, just gave him more tools to use against us. When mental health and hospitals all failed us, I started calling the police to help when he was being seriously violent. At first they didn't want to take him in because he was so compliant with them when they came. But eventually they handcuffed him and took him overnight hoping it would scare him into behaving. (That's all it takes for most kids.) My "friends" were very critical at first, and talked amongst themselves about how horrible a mother I was to call the police on my child. A couple of them even suggested that he could come live with them. (Of course they didn't really mean it, but it made me feel they were thinking they could do a better job of parenting.) Now though, he shows his true colors wherever he is except court.

I had a visit with the school Superintendent the other day after he threatened a girl at school to get a knife and slash her throat. Her father had come to the school and had made a police report. I told her I hoped the community didn't feel that we were the same way or taught him this behavior. Her response was, "I think most people think you are saints for hanging in there." It has been hard. There has been lots of judgemental people and most likely always will be those who think they could have done better. Most people believe that only an abused child can behave in such a criminal manner. I have three children who graduated Valedictorian and another who has a degree in nuclear physics and serving in the US Navy. My younger children are all drug affected; one is autistic, one has ADHD, one has well-stablized Bi-Polar, but they are all good students, sports stars, some play multiple band instruments. They bicycle and lego engineers and can cook and do their own laundry. We attend church every Sunday, have had one child fulfil a mission and others who plan to go teach the Gospel for 2 years out of their lives when they are old enough. They have goals for college and their future careers. I'm not trying to be boastful, I just want people to understand what kind of home this child is being raised in and how with all our efforts, he is just this way. I am hoping that the world can start to understand that people can just be born predisposed to be a psychopath and no amount of nurturing can prevent it.

Oh exhausted! You sound so much like me and my situation! I had a school principal once tell me, (when I went in there to confess that I was doing everything I could and it woasn't working, and I also told him I didn't even love this child anymore!) And he said "Of the many parents that I meet, you, I can tell you, LOVE this child. He is the primary disfunction in your family, we know that. He sure doesn't come from a disfunctional family!"
That little chat got me through a couple more years with that child, finally someone saw it! But it did nothing to change the child. I have prayed long and hard for healing for him, or for a way to deal with this constant warfare...but God hasn't answered trhat prayer yet, for what reason, I don't understand...but one day I will. And so will you:>)

Hi Exhausted

I have asked myself that very question many times and still come back to the conclusion my partner’s kid could help himself. He could put an act of revenge on hold until the circumstances were right for him to do it. He planned these attacks so had the choice of whether to carry them out and weigh up the consequences of his intended actions. As he lived for the moment he didn’t consider punishment or if he did he didn’t care. Also the gratification of doing something nasty was foremost in his mind.
I have also battled with the dilemma of seeing psychopathy as a mental illness or a lifestyle choice and come down on the side of lifestyle choice because they know what is expected and can perform as they should when it suits their needs. I’m sure most of us have some sort problem that has to be overcome to function well in society even if it’s only to curb an acid tongue when we speak out too readily. Some people have anger management issues and can successfully control their reactions so as not to hurt others. You have experience of Autism and deal with it to help your child function in society, the lack of empathy due to Autism doesn't have the same devastating result as the lack of empathy a psychopath has.

My partner’s kid was only ‘sad’ when he didn’t get what he was demanding, he even cried sometimes but they were tears of anger and frustration and only for himself. To anyone else observing they would have projected the feeling of sadness onto him and of course we get the blame for being mean or cruel parents, always refusing him things. They didn’t see the constant demanding of everything he saw and wanted, he could keep it up for days at a time. A bottomless pit of needs so even if he did get what he wanted he would then start on the next thing so it didn’t really matter what he was ‘agging’ for it would always be something.

As for the apologies and promises of change….I let those wash over me, they were meaningless words. I have also heard words of acceptance of guilt but a quick ‘sorry’ was supposed to make everything right. He may as well have said ‘cup of tea’ for all it meant.

It is our downfall that we are normal parents who commit to raising a child to the best of our ability, we give them love, encouragement, opportunities and experience and we try to lead by example but when you get a kid that doesn’t respond to any of these things how do you deal with it. Do we become someone we are not and do we change our parenting methods? My partner thought the more effort he put in with his kid would eventually flick the light on and he would see how lucky he was to have two people doing so much for him to give him a great life and a future. When you accept that is not going to happen it still doesn’t stop you trying until the situation is taken out of your hands.
We were quite fortunate that we didn’t get much well intentioned intervention from friends but were heavily criticised by the kid’s gran and uncle who were worse that in denial, they fully believed the kid felt rejected by everyone and we were cruel to him.

I recognise all you say about your son not showing his bad side at first. R could be the little charmer when he had an audience and potential rewards. He was sort of OK when it was just him and my partner on their own because he had his father where he wanted him. It was me he waged war with probably because I was never fooled by him so after he tried the charm offensive on me and it didn’t work he really went on the rampage. He still tried the Mr Cutie act with his father, who fell for it as any parent would when they believe their child is genuine. Cupboard love was invented for this kid, quite literally! When he was very young his needs were to get as many goodies as possible and this obsession with getting things progressed to more sophisticated things as he got older.

The school counsellor fell for his act and came to the house to talk to my partner about needing to spend more time with his son as he felt rejected (idea handed to him by his gran). As if that could have been possible! It was the kid trying to use the counsellor to get rid of me, pathetic really.

These kids are punishment insensitive so nothing works or even makes the slightest difference and we found the best thing for us was to send him to his room and leave him there as long as possible. If he thought he had angered us he would smirk with satisfaction.
It became a bizarre way of life for the last year or so he was with us because there was no interaction between him and me, apart form me telling him his meal was on the table. I once stood and watched him from behind eating his meal alone and felt a huge wave of sadness and discomfort at watching him eat on his own. Then I could see he didn’t care, he didn’t feel anything apart from getting his food down with relish. That was one of those moments when I could see I was projecting my feelings onto him. I couldn’t bring myself to let him eat at the same table as us after his table manners went out of the window, I would feel sick watching him so he got fed before we ate. He made the choice to eat like an animal so also had the choice to eat with us or alone as he knew why he no longer ate with us. It was another of those behaviour things that progressed with age.

My partner also had very little interaction with him but it didn’t seem to bother him, he seemed to quite like just being there and irritating (tapping, rhythmically kicking the furniture, making noises, scratching etc etc) but not having to take part unless he was on a mission to get something out of his father. There was very little they could talk about or do together because the kid would sabotage everything from a holiday, a day out, a game of football, a conversation….anything!

I don’t think you are blowing your own trumpet at all, you are telling us about the rewards of good parenting and about the people your children have become under your guidance. It proves that it is your son who causes the problems not your parenting. Many people do not accept that you can’t change psychopathic behaviour any more than you can change the colour of your child’s eyes. They are born with certain features and the personality is the main feature, psychopathy is a personality disorder. I subscribe to the nature not nurture debate although I can see why environment does play a part but only to the extent of the opportunities it provides or denies.

I think it’s good you can say you still have total belief in yourself as parents. It’s hard to get across to people how much you feel you are somehow to blame for your child's life going badly wrong and my partner feels it because his kid is a product of his genes too and what does that say about him? He doesn’t need any criticism from others as he does that for himself although it is not necessary.

He still finds it hard when someone says horrible things about his kid and says ‘that is my kid you are talking about’ even though he knows they are right. That is the kid he wanted and thought he had and the kid they are talking about is the one he got.

We do need to get childhood psychopathy addressed and taken seriously and we have to keep speaking out. It is wonderful that you can share so much with us and it’s only because we are prepared to bring attention to this that we will get recognition. I know there is no cure or treatment and that won’t change unless we go back to how this disorder develops from birth. It’s no good trying to right the problem in an adult.

I keep thinking of you and Hadenuff and hoping you will both get some peace of mind before long.

Regards
Jan

I really appreciate your understanding Jan; and sharing your story helps me feel like I have some ally's. I checked him out of detention on Wednesday to take him to the doctor for his brain scan referral. He was calm and all, but he expressed his belief that there was no reason for him to be in there. I can explain to him that he is on probation and if he has problems at school, won't keep curfew, verbally abuses his family, won't do his chores, etc. he has broken his probation and they need to hold him accountable each time so he will learn to control himself. Of course his response is, "It doesn't help me, just makes me mad."
The doctor made the referral, don't know when yet, but he treated me like I was stupid and he hadn't even read the report from the psychiatrist I had handed him a week ago.I think some people feel that since I chose to adopt, I should just deal with whatever problems my children have. But we don't have control over our own biological children either do we? We take what comes and do our best.